From owner-philofractal@icd.com Thu Apr 1 01:33:01 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA12029 for philofractal-list; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:33:06 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA11991 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:27:17 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2iveib3.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.73.99]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA17553 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:33:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:33:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990401012935.2b7f0e3e@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 01-04-99 (Algae Covered Midget) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- April 01, 1999 Fractal enthusiasts: Although the date of this FOTD is April 1, I am writing it on Wednesday evening, the 31 of March. The weather this last day of March was perfectly perfect. The temperature of 74F 23C and fresh SW breeze was perfect for kite flying, and indeed, in the nearby park the kites were aloft. On such perfect days as today, I celebrate the perfection by searching for fractals. For today's fractal, I copied the critical.frm file back into my Fractint directory, and entered some random parameters. I'm not going to explain again how the formula works, but the variety of fractals it creates apparently is limitless. The entire figure drawn by the parameters of today's fractal is an oversized blob, which at first appears worthy of only the delete key. But I believe in always giving a fractal a fair chance, so I chose the one spot that appeared to have potential, and zoomed into a valley there. I soon found a midget, and just beyond the midget's tail, another, far smaller midget. The fact that today's midget lies near the west end of a larger midget is revealed by the eight sharp, white spokes radiating from the midget. The rest of the scene is so filled with wormholes as to resemble an overworked swiss cheese. The very long color data section of the parameter file reveals that I helped the colors a bit in Photoshop. When the time came to name the image, I was stuck at first. Then I had a thought of colorful algae growing along the edge of a lazy pond. I named the picture "Algae Covered Midget", which is not entirely inappropriate, since the Mandelbrot shape is frequently called a lake. The parameter file is another slow one. Thank the powers that be, (which are me), that the GIF file has been posted to the Usenet group: and to Paul Lee's site on the WWW at: April will be devoted to discussing the fourth dimension. But before getting started, I must answer the obvious question, which is, "of what use is the concept of the fourth dimension?" To begin, it gives a deeper insight into plane and solid geometry. Thus, a circle of one dimension -- a line segment -- has very few properties, while a circle in two dimensions has a center, radii, tangents, etc., and in three dimensions has further numerous geometrical relations with the sphere, cone, etc. Similarly, the properties of any given line or surface increase in number when investigated in hyperspace. Also, just as it requires a 3-space to include certain one-dimensional aggregates such as the helix, so in 4-space previously unknown lines and surfaces become mathematically possible. Lower spaces are contained in higher, (if curved, not necessar- ily the next higher), and just as the comprehension of plane geometry is enlarged by viewing plane figures in 3-space, so solid geometry is much enlarged by the geometry of 4-space. Fields of mathematics inaccessible to geometry of lower dimen- sions can be given geometrical representation in hyperspace. But perhaps greatest of all, the concept of higher dimensions enlarges our mental horizons. That's it for today. I'll return tomorrow with an enlarged mental horizon and a fractal. Until then, take care, and pray for peace, (if you think it will do any good). Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA============================================= MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END FORMULA=============================================== START PARAMETER FILE====================================== AlgaeCoveredMidget { ; 3-1/2hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1 center-mag=+1.10812135864031800/+0.23526967624543\ 520/2.80066e+009/1/27.499 params=1/6/-1/5/4/0 float=y maxiter=24000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=620 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000Y40Y60Y90S90<3>69119909H09P09_<2>09x09z<2>\ 09z0Cz0Cz0Cz0Ez<2>0Ez0Hz0Hu0Hr0Km0Kj0Ke0Kb0MY0MU0MP0\ PM0PH1PE4P96S69S1CS0EU0HU0KU0KU0HS0HP0HP0HM0HK0HK0HH\ 0HH0EE0EC0EC0E90E60E60E40E40C10<7>C00900<6>900600<7>\ a00e04i09m0Cq0Hu0Kz0Pz0Uz4Yz9bzEezHb<2>zHbzH_zK_zK_z\ K_zK_zKYzKYzMYzMYzMYzMUzMUxPUuPUrPS<2>jPSgSSeSPbSP_S\ PYSPUUPSUM<2>KUMKUMKPMMLSM0UP0_P0bS0eU0eY0g_0g_0jb1j\ e9jgHmgMmjUpmbppjpprrrzruzuxzuzzpxzuuzz<2>mzzjuzgrz\ <2>_bzYYzUSzSMzMHzPKzSMzUPzYSz_Uz_Yzb_zebzgbzjezmgzm\ jz<4>zxzzzzzxzxxzxuzuuzuuzrrzsrztpzuozvnxwmxxmuymrzm\ rzmpzmmzmmzmjzmgzmgzmezmezmbzm_zm_zmYzmUzmUzmSzmPzmP\ zmMzmMzmPzmPzmSzmSzmSzmUzmUzmUzmYzmYzmYzm_zm_zm_zmbz\ mbzmbzmezmezmezmgzmgzmgzmjzmjzmjzmmzmmzmmzmpzmpzmpzm\ rzmrzmpzmr } END PARAMETER FILE======================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE========================= AlgaeCoveredMidget { ; 3-1/2hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1 center-mag=+1.10812135864031800/+0.23526967624543\ 520/2.80066e+009/1/27.499 params=1/6/-1/5/4/0 float=y maxiter=24000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=620 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000Y40Y60Y90S90<3>69119909H09P09_<2>09x09z<2>\ 09z0Cz0Cz0Cz0Ez<2>0Ez0Hz0Hu0Hr0Km0Kj0Ke0Kb0MY0MU0MP0\ PM0PH1PE4P96S69S1CS0EU0HU0KU0KU0HS0HP0HP0HM0HK0HK0HH\ 0HH0EE0EC0EC0E90E60E60E40E40C10<7>C00900<6>900600<7>\ a00e04i09m0Cq0Hu0Kz0Pz0Uz4Yz9bzEezHb<2>zHbzH_zK_zK_z\ K_zK_zKYzKYzMYzMYzMYzMUzMUxPUuPUrPS<2>jPSgSSeSPbSP_S\ PYSPUUPSUM<2>KUMKUMKPMMLSM0UP0_P0bS0eU0eY0g_0g_0jb1j\ e9jgHmgMmjUpmbppjpprrrzruzuxzuzzpxzuuzz<2>mzzjuzgrz\ <2>_bzYYzUSzSMzMHzPKzSMzUPzYSz_Uz_Yzb_zebzgbzjezmgzm\ jz<4>zxzzzzzxzxxzxuzuuzuuzrrzsrztpzuozvnxwmxxmuymrzm\ rzmpzmmzmmzmjzmgzmgzmezmezmbzm_zm_zmYzmUzmUzmSzmPzmP\ zmMzmMzmPzmPzmSzmSzmSzmUzmUzmUzmYzmYzmYzm_zm_zm_zmbz\ mbzmbzmezmezmezmgzmgzmgzmjzmjzmjzmmzmmzmmzmpzmpzmpzm\ rzmrzmpzmr } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE=========================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Thu Apr 1 22:51:46 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA02792 for philofractal-list; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:51:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mailhost1.attcanada.net (mailhost1.attcanada.net [206.191.82.42]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA02691 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:27:24 -0600 Received: from d244-xv102h2-vanc-pdi.attcanada.net ([142.194.58.244]) by mailhost1.attcanada.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP id <19990402032831.IJD21518@d244-xv102h2-vanc-pdi.attcanada.net> for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 03:28:31 +0000 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:36:11 -0800 From: John Wilson X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.22) S/N 78C6BBA8 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <10816.990401@attcanada.net> To: philofractal@icd.com Subject: [philofractal] Re: FOTD 31-03-99 (Neobrot) (c) References: <1.5.4.16.19990331005552.29971682@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Tuesday, March 30, 1999, Jim wrote: (as a throw-away) JM> Until next time, take care, JM> and if nothing, not even light, can escape from a black hole, JM> how does the gravity get out? Beats me! I'm still trying to discover how cosmologists reconcile that "no escape" business with that original BIG black hole, out of which a Universe suddenly spewed forth. That's a BIG leak. Does a black hole have a critical mass? John W. mailto:johnw1@attcanada.net _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Apr 2 00:53:29 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA03248 for philofractal-list; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:51:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp4.mindspring.com (smtp4.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA03095 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:13:28 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2iveijb.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.74.107]) by smtp4.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA31344 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:21:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:21:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990402002223.3e670c76@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] Re: FOTD 31-03-99 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 07:36 PM 4/1/99 -0800, John Wilson wrote: >Tuesday, March 30, 1999, Jim wrote: > >(as a throw-away) > >JM> Until next time, take care, >JM> and if nothing, not even light, can escape from a black hole, >JM> how does the gravity get out? > >Beats me! I'm still trying to discover how cosmologists reconcile >that "no escape" business with that original BIG black hole, out of >which a Universe suddenly spewed forth. That's a BIG leak. Does a >black hole have a critical mass? > > John W. mailto:johnw1@attcanada.net One explanation for the black hole paradox might be that even though gravity cannot get out, neither can the bad news that nothing can get out. IMO, there are quite a few 'holes' in our current cosmological theories. FOTD coming within the hour. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Apr 2 01:51:47 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA03579 for philofractal-list; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:51:45 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from dot.crosswinds.net (dot.crosswinds.net [204.50.152.131]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA03314 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:01:55 -0600 Received: from default (98CFE3BA.ipt.aol.com [152.207.227.186]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16147 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:12:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nleseul@zurich.crosswinds.net) Message-ID: <001101be7ccf$0fee42e0$bae3cf98@default> From: "Nature Leseul" To: Subject: Re: [philofractal] Re: FOTD 31-03-99 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:07:01 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com <> Well, if you consider space to be like a 2-dimensional rubber sheet where massive objects cause the sheet to push down, then asking how the gravity gets out is about like asking why a hole doesn't fall into itself. If you start bringing gravitons or something into the picture, though... :-P And I have another question. The 2-d sheet analogy is supposed to give a demonstration for how mass curves spacetime and causes the illusion of gravity. But it's gravity that causes the massive objects to deform the sheet in the first place! So aren't you basically proving that gravity causes gravity? :-P !i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i !i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i! i!i! Nature Leseul i!i! i!i! "I wil play you some Mozart, if you like, which wil onlyi!i! i!i! make you weep, but my Don Juan, Christine, burns, i!i! i!i! and yet he is not struck by fire from Heaven... You i!i! i!i! see, Christine, there is some music that is so terriblei!i! i!i! that it consumes all who approach it." i!i! !i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i !i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i! _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Apr 2 01:51:47 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA03590 for philofractal-list; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:51:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp3.mindspring.com (smtp3.mindspring.com [207.69.200.33]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA03502 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:28:07 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2ivehlk.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.70.180]) by smtp3.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA30531 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:36:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:36:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990402013242.29971b36@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 02-04-99 (Fractal Madness) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- April 02, 1999 Fractal enthusiasts: Today it rained here at Fractal Central. The temperature of 57F 14C was perfect for fractals. It's too bad that my mood was not as perfect as the perfect weather. As a peace-loving type of person, I find the current world situation sheer madness. I thought we'd gotten over this kind of behavior 54 years ago, but I see I was mistaken. I could launch into a verbal tirade, the likes of which has rarely been seen. But . . . I won't -- at least not today. I can promise nothing for tomorrow. I'll try to hold back because this is a fractal group. It's where those who are tired of the pathetic bumblings of humanity go when they need distraction. And nothing is more distracting than our topic for April -- the fourth dimension. The curious features of four-dimensional space are interesting, but they baffle us when we try to visualize them. Not only the possibility of things such as the Julibrot, but the facts themselves seem beyond comprehension. In plane and solid geometry we can draw figures and construct models. Even though our constructions represent abstractions, we can see the shapes themselves, and therefore, even when they are complicated, we can readily picture them in our minds. However, geometry of four dimensions deals with things that no one has experienced or can imagine. We can construct nothing more than three-dimensional projections of four-dimensional objects, and even then, we see only a skeletal three-dimensional object. When we first hear them, the words of 4-D geometry seem to make no sense. All that we should try to do is to remember the various relations and to become familiar with them. In time, the objects of 4-D geometry may perhaps acquire some of the vividness of the objects of 3-D geometry, but we will never be able to form a mental image of an entire, undistorted four- dimensional object such as the Julibrot. The relation between the Mandelbrot set and the Julia sets brings us face-to-face with two of the many puzzling but true facts of four-dimensional geometry -- the fact that in 4-D space, two planes intersect in a single point, and a plane may be absolutely and completely perpendicular to another plane. (Two planes are completely perpendicular when they intersect in a single point and every line in one plane is perpendicular to every line in the other.) The Mandelbrot set is a catalog of all the Julia sets. But what does this mean in terms of 4-D geometry? It means that every point of the Mandelbrot set is intersected by a unique and completely perpendicular plane, which in fact is the Julia set associated with that point of the M-set. Consider the familiar Julia set associated with the apex of Seahorse Valley at C=-0.75,0. The X-axis of this Julia set intersects Seahorse Valley at a right angle. But the Y-axis also intersects Seahorse Valley at a right angle. In fact every line in this Julia set is perpendicular to the Mandelbrot set, and intersects it at the apex of Seahorse Valley. Obviously, what I have just described is impossible -- but it is impossible only in three dimensional space. In 4-D space it is easily accomplished. I have sometimes been asked whether there is a perturbed Mandelbrot set associated with, (intersecting), every point of every Julia set. Of course, there is. But the relation in this case is trivial. Julia sets are not catalogs of Mandelbrot sets. There's lots more of this four-dimensional stuff to come during April. That is if I don't simply throw up my hands in disgust and move to somewhere like that new Canadian province. Today's fractal is something I didn't really have my heart into. I simply found a midget and set my computer to work on its own, while I attended to other matters. It's a picture of a midget located somewhere in some forgotten fractal. I named the picture "Fractal Madness" after the madness now enveloping our world. The artistic value of the fractal is minimal, with too many patterns vying for prominence and next to no effort put into the coloring. The 12-hour parameter file is far too slow to be practical, so fetching the GIF file from: or from is almost a necessity. Tomorrow, I shall return with another fractal. Perhaps I'll contain my disgust with the world situation, perhaps not. If I don't, I'll warn beforehand that inflammatory material is to follow. Until then, take care, and let me outta here. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA============================================= MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END FORMULA=============================================== START PARAMETER FILE====================================== Fractal_Madness { ; 12hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1 center-mag=+0.42618932581926700/-0.542672409119630\ 30/5.551159e+007/1/-125 params=100/1/-100/-1/-0.99/0 float=y maxiter=18000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=1735 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000XWMUVQ<7>bXHtjQkcLcXGS0EUDCWQB<14>UNlUNnT\ Ls<10>bYP_MMbZNekOjyP<11>QrDOqCOu5<15>GXmFVpDXx<19>\ PA1<6>uII<7>U_N<7>cSAqRy<14>drrs4q<10>`XwhZcp`Ky`0\ <20>Oa6<4>QDjQ9rP9m<8>P98M70<8>jHU<13>XHTZKZ`Md_Pk\ <18>uMbV8h<16>oIM } END PARAMETER FILE======================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE========================= Fractal_Madness { ; 12hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1 center-mag=+0.42618932581926700/-0.542672409119630\ 30/5.551159e+007/1/-125 params=100/1/-100/-1/-0.99/0 float=y maxiter=18000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=1735 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000XWMUVQ<7>bXHtjQkcLcXGS0EUDCWQB<14>UNlUNnT\ Ls<10>bYP_MMbZNekOjyP<11>QrDOqCOu5<15>GXmFVpDXx<19>\ PA1<6>uII<7>U_N<7>cSAqRy<14>drrs4q<10>`XwhZcp`Ky`0\ <20>Oa6<4>QDjQ9rP9m<8>P98M70<8>jHU<13>XHTZKZ`Md_Pk\ <18>uMbV8h<16>oIM } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE=========================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Apr 2 04:51:46 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA04365 for philofractal-list; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 03:51:42 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA04333 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 03:47:51 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-25.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.155]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA14650 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 21:58:59 +1200 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990402183823.006f011c@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 18:38:23 +1200 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] Re: FOTD 31-03-99 (Neobrot) (c) In-Reply-To: <10816.990401@attcanada.net> References: <1.5.4.16.19990331005552.29971682@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 19:36 01/04/99 -0800, John Wilson wrote: >Tuesday, March 30, 1999, Jim wrote: > >(as a throw-away) > >JM> Until next time, take care, >JM> and if nothing, not even light, can escape from a black hole, >JM> how does the gravity get out? > >Beats me! I'm still trying to discover how cosmologists reconcile >that "no escape" business with that original BIG black hole, out of >which a Universe suddenly spewed forth. That's a BIG leak. Does a >black hole have a critical mass? > A Black Hole has a critical circumference for a given mass (it's usually a "crticial radius" that's given, but the term "radius" is ambiguous when you're talking about such badly-stretched spacetime. The circumference, being at right angles to the stretching, is unaffected.) The Schwarschild circumferece is given by C=4piGM/c^2 When a mass M is brought together within a circumference of C, the result is a black hole. Someone please remind me how much the Universe is estimated to mass? Oh, doesn't matter; if you know then you can work out its Schwarzchild circumference and compare it to its real size yourself :-) I don't know what "original black hole" you're referring to (we're still inside the Universe, so what makes you think anything's escaped?), but stuff _can_ get out of a black hole! A black hole radiates energy at a temperature proportional to its surface area. There are various equivalent interpretations of what actually happens, all depending on quantum uncertainty. One involves the creation of pairs of virtual particles in the near vicinity of the hole (encouraged by the intense tidal forces there), with one particle falling in and the other (no longer with a virtual partner to annihilate with) managing to escape. My favourite though is based on the fact that you cannot measure the speed of a particle _exactly_, you can only measure how far it has travelled over a certain interval - and all you get from that is an overall average. Exactly what it was doing in between is another matter. It might have slowed for a bit, then accelerated to make up for lost time. And most importantly (for present purposes) it could have briefly travelled faster than light. And travelling faster than light is exactly what's needed to escape from a black hole. You can never spot a particle travelling faster than light, but you can suddenly find it travelling away from a black hole looking very smug. There's no way of predicting what will come out of a black hole - its output is completely random (thermal to use the jargon). This is equivalent to the virtual-pair creation scenario (an antiparticle is mathematically equivalent to the relevant ordinary particle travelling back in time) - the same experimental results are predicted either way, it's just a question of how you choose to visualise the system, and what scale you're choosing to measure things by. But there is no real injunction against things travelling at above the speed of light, so long as no information is transferred in the process (so, for example, the stuff radiating out of a black hole tells you nothing about what's going on inside). Things are allowed to travel faster than light, as long as they slow back down enough to appear to be travelling slower by the time anyone gets around to measuring their speed (averaged over a certain interval, remember). Morgan _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Apr 2 08:51:40 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id HAA05253 for philofractal-list; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:51:40 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA05136 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:28:25 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2iveiee.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.73.206]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA24730 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:36:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 08:36:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990402083713.369f2f06@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] Re: FOTD 31-03-99 (black holes) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 06:38 PM 4/2/99 +1200, Morgan wrote: >... there is no real injunction against things travelling at above >the speed of light, so long as no information is transferred in the >process (so, for example, the stuff radiating out of a black hole >tells you nothing about what's going on inside). This presents another puzzle to unenlightened me. Let's say that gravity escapes from a black hole because gravitons can travel faster than light and not be detected. But when they do so, they actually do transmit information. The escaping gravitons carry the information about the mass of the singularity within. In fact, the very size of the black hole reveals its mass. One more thought... with the importance being given in modern physics to the transfer of information, it's beginning to look like our idea of the nature of information might need a revision. Could information be an actual physical force or physical attribute ... something that needs to be conserved? There's much interesting stuff that comes to mind next. Too bad that I can think of no immediate way of connecting it with fractals. FOTD in 16 hours. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Apr 2 16:37:16 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01794 for philofractal-list; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:37:17 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA01601 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:07:06 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-14.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.144]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA00196 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 09:18:26 +1200 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990402221609.006eb4a8@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 22:16:09 +1200 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] Re: FOTD 31-03-99 In-Reply-To: <001101be7ccf$0fee42e0$bae3cf98@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 00:07 02/04/99 -0600, Nature Leseul wrote: >If you >start bringing gravitons or something into the picture, though... > Particles of curvature. The smallest possible deformation of the sheet. > But it's gravity that causes the massive objects to deform the >sheet in the first place! So aren't you basically proving that gravity >causes gravity? :-P > Gravity is the visible effect of the distortion of spacetime by mass. It influences the way objects (both with and without rest mass) move by altering distances, angles and hence straight lines. So gravity and the "deformed rubber sheet" are synonymous - different ways of describing the same phenomenon. Both are (rather, "It is") caused by mass. But WHERE DOES MASS COME FROM??? Morgan _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Apr 2 19:15:50 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA02851 for philofractal-list; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 18:15:43 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mailhost1.attcanada.net (mailhost1.attcanada.net [206.191.82.42]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA02806 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 18:04:02 -0600 Received: from d238-xv101h1-vanc-pdi.attcanada.net ([142.194.61.238]) by mailhost1.attcanada.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP id <19990403000527.JAK9121@d238-xv101h1-vanc-pdi.attcanada.net> for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 00:05:27 +0000 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:13:39 -0800 From: John Wilson X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.22) S/N 78C6BBA8 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <17676.990402@attcanada.net> To: philofractal@icd.com Subject: [philofractal] Re[2]: FOTD 31-03-99 References: <3.0.3.32.19990402221609.006eb4a8@mail.nznet.gen.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Friday, April 02, 1999 MLO> Gravity is the visible effect of the distortion of spacetime by mass. It MLO> influences the way objects (both with and without rest mass) move by MLO> altering distances, angles and hence straight lines. MLO> So gravity and the "deformed rubber sheet" are synonymous - different ways MLO> of describing the same phenomenon. Both are (rather, "It is") caused by mass. MLO> But WHERE DOES MASS COME FROM??? My guess is that the "deformed rubber sheet" analogy needs another parameter, which I can only visualize as "persistence", both in space and time. Photons would be have low "persistence" in real spacetime, causing particle/wave duality. Increasing mass results from higher "persistence". My math isn't good enough to describe what I mean!!! Oh, that "original black hole"...refers, of course, to the singularity from which the "big bang" issued. O.K. the singularity wasn't a black hole, as spacetime didn't yet exist. But the same arguments must surely apply, regarding escaping *anything* from ground zero. John W. mailto:johnw1@attcanada.net _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Apr 2 23:15:42 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA04114 for philofractal-list; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 22:15:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com (smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03904 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 21:17:27 -0600 Received: from default (user-38ldgum.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.195.214]) by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA02179 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 22:25:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason Hine" To: Subject: [philofractal] The surface of a stream... Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 22:26:08 -0500 Message-ID: <01be7d81$b6b63440$d6c356d1@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com -----Original Message----- From: John Wilson To: philofractal@icd.com Date: Friday, April 02, 1999 7:15 PM Subject: [philofractal] Re[2]: FOTD 31-03-99 >Friday, April 02, 1999 > >MLO> Gravity is the visible effect of the distortion of spacetime by mass. It >MLO> influences the way objects (both with and without rest mass) move by >MLO> altering distances, angles and hence straight lines. > >MLO> So gravity and the "deformed rubber sheet" are synonymous - different ways >MLO> of describing the same phenomenon. Both are (rather, "It is") caused by mass. > >MLO> But WHERE DOES MASS COME FROM??? > What about this metaphor (that's right.. another metaphor... you gotta problem wit dat? ;-) First, consider that a whirlpool forms the same sort of 'depression' of the surface of the water that mass causes in spacetime. Next, consider that even an eddy forms a _little_ depression in the surface of a stream - it doesn't take a drain-hole to cause a depression. I see the canoeists among you nodding violently. So we'll say that the surface of the stream is like spacetime. This implies that the molecules making up the water are like gravitons, no? As MLO put it, they water molecules are like "Particles of curvature. The smallest possible deformation of the sheet." (I'm sure he meant to say stream). If we can accept this analogy, then there are several interesting things to note right here: first, a water molecule might be on the surface of the stream, or it might be below (submerged) or above(evaporated) the surface... if the same thing is happening with gravitons in our universe, then our water molecules start to sound suspiciously like what quantum theory calls "virtual particles" - particles that appear briefly on the surface of spacetime and then disappear. It is these virtual particles that define spacetime in the first place! Likewise, the water molecules on the surface of the stream define the surface of the stream. That might be enough to chew on for one Friday evening, but since I haven't written in a while, let's push a bit further. What causes eddies? Well, for one thing, we need current - the stream must be moving in a channel with rough sides. Of course, we could think of a pool of water that gets stirred by a stick, but I think the idea of a flowing stream will work better for us down the road, because it gives us an easy way to think about the passage of time. Ok, get ready... let's assume for the moment we've got a very smooth, straight stream channel, and the water is flowing relatively smoothly, so the surface of the moving water in the middle of the stream is very flat. In our analogy, this would represent a spacetime (universe) with a very even distribution of mass, for if the mass is lumpy, then the surface of our stream must have eddies. I'll let the idea broil on the barbeque for a day or so... ... but one more song before I go. In our picture of a relatively smooth stream, by the laws of physics, there _must_ be eddies at the edge as long as there is some friction between the water and the side of the channel. Now, hold on tight... where is the edge of spacetime? What do we see when we look there? What should we expect to see, based on our analogy, which states that the edges of the channel are fraught with eddies? Remember, an eddy in the surface represents mass in our universe. The edge of spacetime, I'll hazard, is the beginning of time and space... some folks call it the Big Bang. Think about it: if we look out into the night sky, we are looking across vast distances, and we are also looking back in time. If we could look far enough away (the nature of light won't let us), which is the same thing as looking back in time, we'd see the Big Bang, *no matter which direction in the night sky we looked*! But does this metaphor answer Morgan's question? > >MLO> But WHERE DOES MASS COME FROM??? > Well, in our metaphor, the eddies or dimples in the surface of the stream represent the mass in our universe, and eddies are formed when the current (time, I boldly assume) moves the water over the rough stream channel. Now unfortunately for Morgan, we don't have any concept for "the stream channel" in our universe - we're riding on the surface of spacetime, and we can't see "down" below the surface to see what the channel floor looks like, because we don't know what direction to look... and this sounds suspiciously (love that word... hope I'm spelling it correctly!) like something we were discussing in a previous thread. God bless us little fractals, Jason "-^-^-^-" Hine >My guess is that the "deformed rubber sheet" analogy needs another >parameter, which I can only visualize as "persistence", both in space >and time. Photons would be have low "persistence" in real spacetime, >causing particle/wave duality. Increasing mass results from higher >"persistence". My math isn't good enough to describe what I mean!!! > >Oh, that "original black hole"...refers, of course, to the singularity >from which the "big bang" issued. O.K. the singularity wasn't a >black hole, as spacetime didn't yet exist. But the same arguments must >surely apply, regarding escaping *anything* from ground zero. > > John W. mailto:johnw1@attcanada.net > > >_______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ >post: send message to philofractal@icd.com >unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com >admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Sat Apr 3 01:15:41 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA04792 for philofractal-list; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 00:15:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp0.mindspring.com (smtp0.mindspring.com [207.69.200.30]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA04766 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 00:08:28 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2ivehgf.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.70.15]) by smtp0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA19812 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 01:16:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 01:16:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990403011313.297f3862@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 03-04-99 (Cosmic Tango) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- April 03, 1999 Fractal enthusiasts: It was very springlike, almost summer-like, today here at Fractal Central. The temperature of 75F 24C, with a good bit of sun, made fractal hunting the activity of the day. I found today's fractal in the Z^1.5+C Mandeloid. I used the mult1-5-XY-ZW formula because I had originally intended to rotate this midget, but never got around to it. I named the picture "Cosmic Tango" because it resembles an exotic dance of fractal fragments. The one-hour parameter file is another slow one, though not unbearably so. The GIF file has been posted to: and to: As for today's discussion -- forget it. I wrote one, but when I read what I had just written, I deleted the entire thing. My experience is that I've never regretted what I did not send when angry, but I've several times regretted what I did send. I'll try again tomorrow, mood permitting. Until then, take care, and if you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all. (Flower the skunk said that, I think.) Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA============================================= mult1-5-XY-ZW {; draws 6 planes and many rotations ;when fn1-2=i,f, then p1 0,0=M, 0,90=O, 90,0=E, 90,90=J ;when fn1-2=f,i, then p1 0,0=M, 0,90=R, 90,0=P, 90,90=J a=(real(p1)+10^(-100))*.01745329251994, b=imag(p1)*.01745329251994, z=sin(b)*fn1(real(pixel))+sin(a)*fn2(imag(pixel))+p2, c=cos(b)*real(pixel)+cos(a)*flip(imag(pixel))+p3: z=z^1.5+c, |z| <= 36 } END FORMULA=============================================== START PARAMETER FILE====================================== Cosmic_Tango { ; 1hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=multirot.frm formulaname=mult1-5-XY-ZW function=ident/flip passes=t center-mag=+0.19134514680269200/+0.0217109\ 6061941653/65151.12 params=0/0/0/0/0/0 float=y maxiter=50000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=221 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000znMznMzmMzjOziOzfQzfQzdQzbTz_TzZTzW7zU0zS\ 0zQ0zQ0zQ0zQ0<2>zW0zZ0y_0yb0yd0wf0wi0vj0vm0vn0sq0sr\ 0rt0rr0or0oq2oq2nq2nn2kn2km5km5im5ij5gj7gi7gi7di7df\ 7cfAcdA`dA`dA`bAZbDZ_DX_DX_DXZFVZFVWFTWFTWFTUHQUHQS\ HOSHOSKMQKMQKMOKKOKKOMHLMHLMHJMFJOFJODHODHODFOAFQAF\ Q7CQ7CQ5BT7BQ79Q78Q77O<2>77OA7MA7MA7MA7K<2>A7KD7HD7\ HD7HD7HD7FD7FD7FF7D<2>F7DFBA<2>FKAQWD`dFndDkbHi_KiZ\ OgWTdUXdS`cSd`Qi`UnZUrXUvXSyVSzTSzTQzQQzOQzOOzMOzKO\ zKLzHLzFLzFJzDJzAJzAHz7Hz5Hz5Fz5Fz7HzAFz<6>QFzTCz\ <3>`CzcCzdCzgCziCzkAznAzoAzrAzsAzsAzvAzvAzw8zw8\ zy8z<5>z8zz5z<6>z5zz2z<53>z1zz1zz2z<5>z2z } END PARAMETER FILE======================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE========================= Cosmic_Tango { ; 1hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=multirot.frm formulaname=mult1-5-XY-ZW function=ident/flip passes=t center-mag=+0.19134514680269200/+0.0217109\ 6061941653/65151.12 params=0/0/0/0/0/0 float=y maxiter=50000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=221 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000znMznMzmMzjOziOzfQzfQzdQzbTz_TzZTzW7zU0zS\ 0zQ0zQ0zQ0zQ0<2>zW0zZ0y_0yb0yd0wf0wi0vj0vm0vn0sq0sr\ 0rt0rr0or0oq2oq2nq2nn2kn2km5km5im5ij5gj7gi7gi7di7df\ 7cfAcdA`dA`dA`bAZbDZ_DX_DX_DXZFVZFVWFTWFTWFTUHQUHQS\ HOSHOSKMQKMQKMOKKOKKOMHLMHLMHJMFJOFJODHODHODFOAFQAF\ Q7CQ7CQ5BT7BQ79Q78Q77O<2>77OA7MA7MA7MA7K<2>A7KD7HD7\ HD7HD7HD7FD7FD7FF7D<2>F7DFBA<2>FKAQWD`dFndDkbHi_KiZ\ OgWTdUXdS`cSd`Qi`UnZUrXUvXSyVSzTSzTQzQQzOQzOOzMOzKO\ zKLzHLzFLzFJzDJzAJzAHz7Hz5Hz5Fz5Fz7HzAFz<6>QFzTCz\ <3>`CzcCzdCzgCziCzkAznAzoAzrAzsAzsAzvAzvAzw8zw8\ zy8z<5>z8zz5z<6>z5zz2z<53>z1zz1zz2z<5>z2z } frm:mult1-5-XY-ZW {; draws 6 planes and many rotations ;when fn1-2=i,f, then p1 0,0=M, 0,90=O, 90,0=E, 90,90=J ;when fn1-2=f,i, then p1 0,0=M, 0,90=R, 90,0=P, 90,90=J a=(real(p1)+10^(-100))*.01745329251994, b=imag(p1)*.01745329251994, z=sin(b)*fn1(real(pixel))+sin(a)*fn2(imag(pixel))+p2, c=cos(b)*real(pixel)+cos(a)*flip(imag(pixel))+p3: z=z^1.5+c, |z| <= 36 } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE=========================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Sat Apr 3 04:15:45 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA05430 for philofractal-list; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 03:15:55 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA05220 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:22:20 -0600 Received: from default (vp207-142.worldonline.nl [195.241.207.142]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20472 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:30:47 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990403102848.00806650@pop1.tip.nl> X-Sender: t356237@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 10:28:48 +0200 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jack Ruijs Subject: [philofractal] Massive question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 10:16 PM 4/2/99 +1200, Morgan wrote: >So gravity and the "deformed rubber sheet" are synonymous - different ways >of describing the same phenomenon. Both are (rather, "It is") caused by mass. > >But WHERE DOES MASS COME FROM??? Does the first sentence not lead to a different question? Isn't it more logical to ask the question: "What is the difference between mass and the deformed rubber sheet?" Let's take the following thought experiment; Suppose a mass in "empty" space. As it is known, the mass results in a curvature of spacetime (as I mentioned earlier, this is not really my opinion, because I have no arguments for any difference between the two), what then if the mass suddenly disappears? (Lets say, to keep the laws of physics intact, that the mass will be converted to a single foton with the same energy bot no real mass (or more correctly; two fotons to keep the momentum correct)) First question; how fast will the curvature be gone? Second question; why should spacetime be curved back in that case? Third question; can curvature of spacetime exist without mass? The assumption that mass is the cause for the curvature leads to the logical fact that gravity travels with a certain speed through space. Is this a known fact? If so what is the speed? But more importantly; how can the curvature travel in spacetime, if the curvature itself is no more than spacetime itself? (Sorry, I cannot state it more clearly ... (:->)) The analogy with the rubber sheet obscures this problem a little bit (I mean; a lot!), because the rubber sheet exhibits a force to turn to a certain normal state, with spacetime "traveling" itself means a change in spacetime. This means that traveling through spacetime of curvature of spactime means that curvature of spacetime can result in curvature of spacetime ... Thus by assuming that mass causes curvature of spacetime we come to the conclusion that mass might be the same as curvature of spacetime. Or to say it with other words, why is there still a need for the term mass? To come back to the first question; What is the difference between mass and the curvature itself? Greetings, Jack Ruijs _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Sat Apr 3 14:16:56 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA08085 for philofractal-list; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:15:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mailhost1.attcanada.net (mailhost1.attcanada.net [206.191.82.42]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA07952 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 12:44:49 -0600 Received: from d90-xv101h1-vanc-pdi.attcanada.net ([142.194.61.90]) by mailhost1.attcanada.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP id <19990403184553.EFU26824@d90-xv101h1-vanc-pdi.attcanada.net> for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:45:53 +0000 Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:54:08 -0800 From: John Wilson X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.22) S/N 78C6BBA8 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14454.990403@attcanada.net> To: philofractal@icd.com Subject: [philofractal] Re: The surface of a stream... References: <01be7d81$b6b63440$d6c356d1@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Friday, April 02, 1999, Jason wrote: JH> So we'll say that the surface of the stream is like spacetime. This implies JH> that the molecules making up the water are like gravitons, no? As MLO put it, JH> they water molecules are like "Particles of curvature. The smallest possible JH> deformation of the sheet." (I'm sure he meant to say stream). If we can accept JH> this analogy, then there are several interesting things to note right here: JH> first, a water molecule might be on the surface of the stream, or it might be JH> below (submerged) or above(evaporated) the surface... if the same thing is JH> happening with gravitons in our universe, then our water molecules start to JH> sound suspiciously like what quantum theory calls "virtual particles" - JH> particles that appear briefly on the surface of spacetime and then disappear. JH> It is these virtual particles that define spacetime in the first place! JH> Likewise, the water molecules on the surface of the stream define the surface of JH> the stream. This is getting closer to what's been in my, (what I call), mind for a while. *Except*, I'm seeing the your "stream" as the surface of the deformed sheet, and *my* "deformed sheet" is that of the surface of the expanding universe "balloon". In my very sketchy mind-model, time *is* the expansion. Assume that it is *space-time* that is expanding. Imagine standing at "NOW", with time is expanding away from us, either continuously, or, if you will, in quanta. (This is you Jason's "stream"). Seems very logical to me that time must expand together with space, else events happening at "NOW" will either pile up, or slow down. :-) Time and space are either inextricably interwoven, OR, are two aspects of a single phenomenon. Each event occurring at "NOW" will be removed from this point by the expansion of space-time. If a particular event is *repeated* at "NOW", the second event will be separated from the first, both in space and in time. Now here's where I, personally, run into the first of many comprehension problems. What connects these two events, besides my memory? My second problem is...what is the difference between, say, a lightning stroke and the Pyramids of Giza. There has to be some sort of degree of "persistence" in spacetime. Again, the universal expansion could be visualized as being the culprit for the force of gravity. If a mass is positioned on the surface of our "balloon", inertia will ensure that a depression will form in the surface of spacetime, as that surface expands. (Spacetime has "stiffness")? Or is it the other way around...Jason's "whorls" causing the depression? Any way, it all seems to me that the dynamic expansion of the universe is far more fundamental to time, space, gravity and mass that is generally postulated. To my mind, Jason's "stream" is time expanding from "NOW", which incidentally would explain why the arrow of time is one-way only. Like Jim Muth's question...in New Zealand, which direction do you point to Spain? John W. mailto:johnw1@attcanada.net _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Sat Apr 3 15:15:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA08380 for philofractal-list; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:15:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA08262 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:53:41 -0600 Received: from default (user-38ldi6r.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.200.219]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20272 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 15:01:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason Hine" To: Subject: Re: [philofractal] Massive question Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:47:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01be7e0a$e03e3ae0$dbc856d1@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Jack Ruis muses: >Let's take the following thought experiment; Suppose a mass in "empty" >space. As it is known, the mass results in a curvature of spacetime (as I >mentioned earlier, this is not really my opinion, because I have no >arguments for any difference between the two), what then if the mass >suddenly disappears? (Lets say, to keep the laws of physics intact, that >the mass will be converted to a single foton with the same energy bot no >real mass (or more correctly; two fotons to keep the momentum correct)) I was under the impression that, at least at thse scale of subatomic particles, mass and energy are equivalent... so that if a mass is converted into two photons, the mass is still there. True, photons are described as having no mass when at rest, but they are never at rest! It is another peculiar piece of the puzzle that relativistic velocity is also a synonym for mass. In other words, if you have a very small mass, and you want to make it greater, just get it moving up around 97% of the speed of light (that's in a vacuum, just to clarify... ;-), and whoa! its mass will be considerably increased. So these two photons have a mass which sums to equal the original mass, but the mass is represented in a different way; it is represented by relative velocity rather than... whatever mass is. Not that we really understand what relative velocity is, either... it is a change in relationships... but it seems that somehow the two are linked, eh? >First question; how fast will the curvature be gone? I guess I'm saying it won't be gone, just "moved" into a form we don't recognize as mass... >Second question; why should spacetime be curved back in that case? I'm sorry? I don't understand what you mean by "curved back", and "that case". >Third question; can curvature of spacetime exist without mass? According to the current theory that quantum fluctuations in a vacuum form a sea of "virtual particles", and these virtual particles have mass either based on their relative velocity or, er, mass, I think the answer is no. > >The assumption that mass is the cause for the curvature leads to the >logical fact that gravity travels with a certain speed through space. Is >this a known fact? If so what is the speed? Scientists seem fairly well-agreed that the speed of gravitiy, if not instantaneous, is in excess of the speed of light. There are a few people out there with some interesting-sounding ideas on this. >But more importantly; how can >the curvature travel in spacetime, if the curvature itself is no more than >spacetime itself? (Sorry, I cannot state it more clearly ... (:->)) The >analogy with the rubber sheet obscures this problem a little bit (I mean; a >lot!), because the rubber sheet exhibits a force to turn to a certain >normal state, with spacetime "traveling" itself means a change in >spacetime. This means that traveling through spacetime of curvature of >spactime means that curvature of spacetime can result in curvature of >spacetime ... Thus by assuming that mass causes curvature of spacetime we >come to the conclusion that mass might be the same as curvature of >spacetime. Or to say it with other words, why is there still a need for the >term mass? I think the difficulty you're having in your description is a result from the fact that we're talking about a system which we call spacetime that is four-dimensional (at least...). In four dimensions, all sorts of things can relate to each other in ways impossible with only three, sort of like the connectedness of the interior holes in three-dimensional swiss cheese is an impossibility in two dimensions. We are, I think, riding on a four-dimensional "surface" in a higher-dimensional system, and this "surface" is what we actually think of as spacetime. Because we can't see "below the surface" on which we're riding, we can't easily tell what's really going on. If we *could* look below the surface, I think we would see how mass and velocity and gravity and the structure of spacetime are all interrelated, and possibly aspects of a single fractal equation... as it is, we have to try and figure out what's going on by observing how things appear here on the surface. >To come back to the first question; What is the difference between mass and >the curvature itself? A very good question, I think. Cheers! Jason "Not yet frustrated" Hine _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Sat Apr 3 23:15:48 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA10959 for philofractal-list; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 22:15:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA10771 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:40:10 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-07.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.137]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04907 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:51:05 +1200 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990404154502.006f113c@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 15:45:02 +1200 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] Massive question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990403102848.00806650@pop1.tip.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 10:28 03/04/99 +0200, Jack Ruijs wrote: >At 10:16 PM 4/2/99 +1200, Morgan wrote: > >>So gravity and the "deformed rubber sheet" are synonymous - different ways >>of describing the same phenomenon. Both are (rather, "It is") caused by mass. >> >>But WHERE DOES MASS COME FROM??? > >Does the first sentence not lead to a different question? Isn't it more >logical to ask the question: "What is the difference between mass and the >deformed rubber sheet?" > >Let's take the following thought experiment; Suppose a mass in "empty" >space. As it is known, the mass results in a curvature of spacetime (as I >mentioned earlier, this is not really my opinion, because I have no >arguments for any difference between the two), what then if the mass >suddenly disappears? (Lets say, to keep the laws of physics intact, that >the mass will be converted to a single foton with the same energy bot no >real mass (or more correctly; two fotons to keep the momentum correct)) > And make sure the original mass isn't electrically charged, to keep _that_ conserved! This needn't bee a thought experiment: Get a lump of matter, and an equivalent lump of antimatter, then bang the two together. >First question; how fast will the curvature be gone? >Second question; why should spacetime be curved back in that case? >Third question; can curvature of spacetime exist without mass? > First of all, the remaining photons will themselves have a gravitational effect (no _rest_ mass, it is sure, but a lot of energy nevertheless). But the question of what happens to the curvature is a good one. You get gravitational radiation, which is in the form of gravitational waves (or gravitons). When a normal star collapses it does not do so into a nice and perfectly symmetrical spheroid immediately, because of all the inhomogenities and distinguishing features of the star. The resulting bumps on the resulting event horizon, however, rapidly (limited to light speed) flatten out, the resulting change to the hole's gravitational field being radiated away at the speed of light. This actually happens every time a massive object moves. If the Sun were to be suddenly shifted three hundred metres to the left it would be eight minutes before the Earth noticed the fact and adjust its orbit appropriately. During that eight minutes a kink in the Sun's gravitational field has been radiating outwards, and could easily have been detected (and it would have been, by Mercury and Venus for a start). More gentle movements and smaller masses moving would result in smaller kinks and less gravitational radiation. The rubber-sheet analogy does obscure this a little. I sometimes think more in terms of a thin plastic film over the surface of a pool. The film is very elastic, so it can deform as much as necessary, but springs back rather than leave stretch marks. The movement of objects on the sheet sets up ripples in the water (and the sheet lying on the surface as well), which travel outwards at a certain speed. The ripples are gravitational radiation. The radiation bleeds away energy (this is why bumps in a black hole's event horizon collapse), and their strength can be measured as a result. The best real-world test case is PSR1913+16. This system is made up of a pair of orbitting neutron stars (of which one is a pulsar). It's a two-body system distant from other stars, so their orbits are nice and clean, and their masses and densities are so great that relativistic effects of curvature become apparent. It's such a clean system, in fact, that it effectively serves as a General Relativity laboratory. And it has so far confirmed every prediction GR has made about it, including its spiralling together as the result of energy being lost somewhere. The prediction GR makes about is that this energy is being lost as gravitational radiation. And the predicted amount of loss by this mechanism matches (to the limits of observation) the actual lost from the system's momentum (once other sources of energy loss related to the fact that they are stars with magnetic fields is taken into account). Under development are gravitational detectors designed to measure this gravitational radiation as it passes through our vicinity. The idea is that you build a nice big (several kilometres long) L shaped tunnel (alright, a pair of tunnels at right angles), fire a laser beam down both arms, and then use the lasers to measure the relative stretching and compression of the arms of the tunnels as gravitational waves (that is, the stretching and compression of spacetime) pass through. The stretching and compression would only be on the order of one light wavelength in magnitude over several kilometres; the lasers can detect such a change, because you can ensure that the two beams set out with all their crests and troughs in step with each other, and then see if they come back out of step (because one took a _fractionally_ longer route). The thing is even directional - the two arms stretch and compress by different amounts according to the angle at which the radiation passes through, and the direction along that angle can be determined from seeing which arm started flexing first. Personally, I would like to see a third arm added at right angles to the other two, because the existing design would be blind to radiation perpendicular to the plane of the L; but that would be an architectural and engineering challenge that researchers are not yet quite prepared to face. The current designs are intended to be sensitive enough to measure the gravitational radiation from PSR1913+16. It would then also be strong enough to tell when a black hole swallows something big, by the brief deformation of and subsequent radiation from the event horizon. Greg Egan, a science fiction author whose books constantly appear to be relevant to topics in this discussion list (unless it's just me :-) has exactly such a telescope in his novel _Diaspora_. Placing the telescope on the moon has the advantage that one does not need the tunnels as such, because vacuum is alreay there for the taking. So now one can have really _big_ (and sensitive) gravity telescopes by mounting the lasers and mirrors and such on mountain ranges around craters. I kind of got sidetracked there, sorry, it doesn't really answer your question > >What is the difference between mass and the curvature itself? > does it? I have an object and I want to get it from rest to 100km/h in the next 4.5 seconds. To do so I need to exert a certain force on it. This force is proportional to the mass of the object. Gravity is not an issue here, so why is mass relevant? Morgan _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Sun Apr 4 01:15:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA11495 for philofractal-list; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:15:53 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA11338 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 23:42:19 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2ivehbb.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.69.107]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA20813 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:50:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:50:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990404004633.298f67e2@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 04-04-99 (Midget with Basins) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- April 04, 1999 Fractal enthusiasts: It was a sunny, mild day here at Fractal Central, with a temperature of 66F 19C, which was perfect for fractals. Unfortunately, due to my continuing sullen mood, I had little energy for searching. But thanks to the old faithful MandelbrotMix4 formula, I did find a fractal. And I found it with next to no effort. Can art be created without effort? Of course not. Is today's fractal art? Of course not. Is today's fractal interesting? That depends on what one considers interesting. Is today's fractal worth the two hours it will take to run the parameter file? Probably not. That's why the GIF file has been posted to: and to: I named the picture "Midget with Basins" after the eight bottomless basins surrounding the central midget. The coloring, which is the first random palette that came up, was done without effort. The midget itself might be slightly more interesting than the average Mandelbrot midget. At least it's got a lot of squiggles, which extend well beyond the borders of today's image. April is supposed to be fourth-dimension month, and it got off to a fair start. But for various reasons, I've contracted a case of what's known as writer's block. In other words, the feeling isn't there, and I have to force myself to sit at the keyboard. If I wrote, I would never be able to adequately communicate my thoughts of the fourth dimension, so I won't write until the creative energy, or whatever it is, returns. It might return tomorrow; it might not. There's only one way to find out, and that's to check then. Until next time, take care, and could the FOTD be nearing the end of the road? . . . Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA============================================= MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END FORMULA=============================================== START PARAMETER FILE====================================== Midget_with_Basins { ; 2-1/2hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1 center-mag=-6.050521900560749/+2.748178996200508\ /1449938/1/-157.5 params=100/-0.999/-100/-1.001/125/0 float=y maxiter=7500 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=262 symmetry=xaxis periodicity=10 colors=000VMj<7>VGmVGmWFk<13>g9Kk5C<16>FZv<15>NGeKCc\ <12>rkd<11>TiXRiWPiWNiWTlaYnXLiVBfZAbV<8>1j31j3<21>V\ QkSJs<3>djW<14>DMOBKO9HM<11>C`_Ca`Dda<6>JsdKueKueKve\ Kwe<8>TnyuoV<20>pQppPqpPrpOspNt<4>tSyuTzvUzwUzxUzyUz\ <37>zUz } END PARAMETER FILE======================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE========================= Midget_with_Basins { ; 2-1/2hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1 center-mag=-6.050521900560749/+2.748178996200508\ /1449938/1/-157.5 params=100/-0.999/-100/-1.001/125/0 float=y maxiter=7500 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=262 symmetry=xaxis periodicity=10 colors=000VMj<7>VGmVGmWFk<13>g9Kk5C<16>FZv<15>NGeKCc\ <12>rkd<11>TiXRiWPiWNiWTlaYnXLiVBfZAbV<8>1j31j3<21>V\ QkSJs<3>djW<14>DMOBKO9HM<11>C`_Ca`Dda<6>JsdKueKueKve\ Kwe<8>TnyuoV<20>pQppPqpPrpOspNt<4>tSyuTzvUzwUzxUzyUz\ <37>zUz } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE=========================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Sun Apr 4 15:16:13 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA14840 for philofractal-list; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:15:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14828 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:14:19 -0500 Received: from default (vp213-242.worldonline.nl [195.241.213.242]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA10295 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 21:22:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990404140316.007fd1c0@ramos.nl> X-Sender: ramos01@ramos.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 14:03:16 +0200 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jack Ruijs Subject: [philofractal] Massive question In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990404154502.006f113c@mail.nznet.gen.nz> References: <3.0.5.32.19990403102848.00806650@pop1.tip.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 03:45 PM 4/4/99 +1200, Morgan wrote: >This needn't bee a thought experiment: Get a lump of matter, and an >equivalent lump of antimatter, then bang the two together. I deliberately didn't use that, because in that case you already have "moving" curvatures in spacetime, the question what should happen with the resulting curvature then is much more complex. >First of all, the remaining photons will themselves have a gravitational >effect (no _rest_ mass, it is sure, but a lot of energy nevertheless). Are you sure? If this is true fotons DO have mass (simply because fotons never are at rest). Can you explain how fotons have a gravitational effect? >But the question of what happens to the curvature is a good one. You get >gravitational radiation, which is in the form of gravitational waves (or >gravitons). When a normal star collapses it does not do so into a nice and >perfectly symmetrical spheroid immediately, because of all the >inhomogenities and distinguishing features of the star. The resulting bumps >on the resulting event horizon, however, rapidly (limited to light speed) >flatten out, the resulting change to the hole's gravitational field being >radiated away at the speed of light. You know -I assume, much better than I do- that this all is of a very high hypothetical nature. Does the fact that gravitional waves propagate with the speed of light, directly follow from the GR? >The rubber-sheet analogy does obscure this a little. I sometimes think more >in terms of a thin plastic film over the surface of a pool. The film is >very elastic, so it can deform as much as necessary, but springs back >rather than leave stretch marks. This "springing back" of course is just the key point of my "thought experiment". Why does it spring back? Or does it only "seem" to spring back, because of the general expansion of spacetime? >.... It's such a clean system, in fact, that it >effectively serves as a General Relativity laboratory. And it has so far >confirmed every prediction GR has made about it, including its spiralling >together as the result of energy being lost somewhere. This indeed is a very beautiful effect of nature. Astronomists are in general blessed with such a beautiful and vast laboratory, but most of all a clean one! This could easily be different if tiny particles wandered around in space to absorb most of the radiation we observe ... >The prediction GR makes about is that this energy is being lost as >gravitational radiation. And the predicted amount of loss by this mechanism >matches (to the limits of observation) the actual lost from the system's >momentum (once other sources of energy loss related to the fact that they >are stars with magnetic fields is taken into account). Do you really MEAN "prediction", aren't the other losses calculated AFTER the facts and the prediction itself were known? Note, this is not an attack on science in general or GR in specific, I just have a very great sceptisism against the word "prediction" when concerning experiments with a very high assumption-character and calculations done _after_ the experiment. Like the experiments you describe about gravitation-detectors, there are many other such modern measurements which all are at the edge of certainty-uncertainty. To name a few; measuring up to a millionth of a degree of the background-radiation, measuring the number of neutrinos coming from the sun, visualizing giant structures in space and last but not least the old and most inaccurate measurements done and accepted by science; the measurement of the distance of a celestial body. >The current designs are intended to be sensitive enough to measure the >gravitational radiation from PSR1913+16. It would then also be strong >enough to tell when a black hole swallows something big, by the brief >deformation of and subsequent radiation from the event horizon. I think it will be a great experiment, but I suspect that it will go the same way as the neutrino-detector, or probably much worse, because the measurements will lie well below the noise-floor. But hopefully something can be detected. But to be specific because I really do not know, how can one point the detector to the pulsar with just an L-shaped mass? Furthermore aren't massive movements in the earths interior (or just below the crust) disturbing any measurment of this kind? > .... Placing the telescope on >the moon has the advantage that one does not need the tunnels as such, >because vacuum is alreay there for the taking. So now one can have really >_big_ (and sensitive) gravity telescopes by mounting the lasers and mirrors >and such on mountain ranges around craters. This sounds indeed much more promising. >>What is the difference between mass and the curvature itself? >> >does it? Does it or is it? (:->) >I have an object and I want to get it from rest to 100km/h in the next 4.5 >seconds. To do so I need to exert a certain force on it. This force is >proportional to the mass of the object. Gravity is not an issue here, so >why is mass relevant? This I do not understand, in the explanation above you use the GR in almost every possible way, but when it is time to use the very basis of the theory, you leave it out ...? The point in GR is that there is no real difference between a force as a result from gravity and a force as a result from acceleration. If there is a certain fact that GR proves, it is the fact that you cannot see the force you mention above apart from any gravitanional effect. As a further explanation of what I mean; exerting a force on a mass could as well be regarded as pushing the curvature in spacetime, hence the question remains; "What is the difference between mass and the curvature itself?" Greetings, Jack Ruijs _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Apr 5 01:15:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA17681 for philofractal-list; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:15:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA17465 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:23:20 -0500 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-42.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.172]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA29809 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:33:48 +1200 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990404211223.006ee7b4@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 21:12:23 +1200 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] FOTD 04-04-99 (Midget with Basins) (c) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990404004633.298f67e2@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 00:50 04/04/99 -0500, Jim Muth wrote: > > Until next time, take care, >and could the FOTD be nearing the end of the road? . . . > _Definitely_ a case of writer's block! _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Apr 5 01:23:09 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA17693 for philofractal-list; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:17:26 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp3.mindspring.com (smtp3.mindspring.com [207.69.200.33]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA17667 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:12:55 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2ivei1q.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.72.58]) by smtp3.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA13342 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990405001636.0d37a438@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 05-04-99 (Amber-Grit Midget) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- April 05, 1999 Fractal enthusiasts: The day turned out perfect here at Fractal Central. It was the warmest day so far this spring. A sunny morning led to an increasingly cloudy afternoon and a heavy thunder-shower at nightfall. But the afternoon temperature of 79F 26C was perfect for searching and finding fractals. After taking a long walk to enjoy the weather, I searched once more in the MandelbrotMix4 formula, entering the most unlikely parameters at random, until I stumbled upon today's little midget, which as its pattern indicates, lies just beyond the tail-end of a larger midget. I named the picture "Amber-Grit Midget", because of its prepon- derance of amber colors and its gritty texture. The parameter file runs in 48 minutes; the GIF file downloads in about one minute -- take your choice. If you choose the GIF file, it can be picked up from Usenet at: or from the WWW at: As I said earlier, I took a long walk today to enjoy the fine weather. On that walk I stopped at a small wooded area only a few blocks from fractal HQ, where a few months ago I discovered a small shrine, apparently maintained by a young woman in memory of a dead loved one. Today being Easter Sunday, the day when the Christian world celebrates the resurrection, I could not help but enter the woods to revisit that secluded shrine. Since I last stopped there around Christmas time, the shrine has been visited frequently. The things I remember are still there, though far more weathered. The headset still hangs from the top of the cross, though the note, which originally read, "I hope you can hear me with these", has deteriorated beyond legibility. But new notes of affection have been attached to the wood cross, and a bouquet of flowers less than a day old has been placed at the foot of the cross. As I left the scene, I shook my head in confusion. It's no fun being a skeptical agnostic in situations such as this. The keeper of the shrine remains a mystery. I suppose it always should remain so. Some things are best left undiscovered. There is no four-dimensional stuff today. I couldn't muster the concentration to write about such an abstract concept. But the attack of writer's block appears to be passing, and by tomorrow, I could be in full stride once again. My sullen mood of the past few days has been due partly to the world situation, which I know enough about to recognize that it is being totally misrepresented by the media, and partly to a very bad experience suffered by a close friend, who tried to help the underachieving children of the local school system. Taken together, the two equal total cynicism on my part, and we all know how people dislike cynics, who are usually right. So I'll remain quiet for now and avoid the animosity. But have no fear. The reports of the imminent demise of the FOTD have been greatly exaggerated. I most definitely will be here tomorrow, and for a long time thereafter as well, with fractals to gaze at and words to consider. Until next time, take care, and have a happy season. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA============================================= MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END FORMULA=============================================== START PARAMETER FILE====================================== Amber-Grit_Midget { ; 48min on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1 center-mag=-1.340693431212503/+0.270873538600941/3.\ 088382e+008/1/-129.999 params=-20/1.6/20/1.601/30/0 float=y maxiter=1800 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=148 symmetry=xaxis periodicity=10 colors=000700700<6>960970981A92<2>AC5AC5CB7ED8FE9\ <2>IHNJISKJY<6>SIP<8>KHFJHEGGE<20>zX8<10>ooInqJoq\ K<19>evDevDbuF<13>8g_6fa2hc<15>WAVY8U`2T<12>ElZ\ <18>4SZ3RZ0NY<14>azZ<15>OSEEbX5mo<7>3ne3od4pb<5>A\ vW<7>ewNiwMmwM<2>mwKmwKmwL<16>mwPmwh<6>mwV } END PARAMETER FILE======================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE========================= Amber-Grit_Midget { ; 48min on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1 center-mag=-1.340693431212503/+0.270873538600941/3.\ 088382e+008/1/-129.999 params=-20/1.6/20/1.601/30/0 float=y maxiter=1800 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=148 symmetry=xaxis periodicity=10 colors=000700700<6>960970981A92<2>AC5AC5CB7ED8FE9\ <2>IHNJISKJY<6>SIP<8>KHFJHEGGE<20>zX8<10>ooInqJoq\ K<19>evDevDbuF<13>8g_6fa2hc<15>WAVY8U`2T<12>ElZ\ <18>4SZ3RZ0NY<14>azZ<15>OSEEbX5mo<7>3ne3od4pb<5>A\ vW<7>ewNiwMmwM<2>mwKmwKmwL<16>mwPmwh<6>mwV } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE=========================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Apr 5 07:15:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA19139 for philofractal-list; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 06:16:04 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mail.worldcom.ch (mail1.worldcom.ch [195.61.43.205]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA18994 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 05:41:52 -0500 Received: from default (portge022.worldcom.ch [194.235.4.22]) by mail.worldcom.ch (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17039 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:49:37 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199904051049.MAA17039@mail.worldcom.ch> From: "Luc-Andre Rey" To: Subject: [philofractal] update Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:39:22 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com A new update of my site, pages 15 and 16. The site http://www.multimania.com/warey/fract/ Enjoy Luc-Andre _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Apr 6 01:16:11 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA24577 for philofractal-list; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:16:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp4.mindspring.com (smtp4.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA24418 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:39:12 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2iveiho.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.74.56]) by smtp4.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01197 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990405234235.2b4fb3f2@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 06-04-99 (Fractal Bits and Pieces) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- April 06, 1999 Fractal enthusiasts: Last evening's heavy rain was followed by a perfect day here at the Center of the Fractal world, (IMHO of course), with a temperature of 56F 13C, a sapphire sky and gentle breeze making it perfect for hunting fractals. The MandelbrotMix4 litany continues . . . once again I delved into the MandelbrotMix4 formula to find a new kind of Minibrot. And the formula, which has never failed me, once again came through with flying colors. I'm not going to describe the parameters, which are evident from the parameter file, but I will say that today's image is one of the more unusual ones, showing a blazing minibrot surrounded by a jungle of verdant fractal foliage. A quick trip through Photoshop 5.0 created the blaze. I've named the picture "Fractal Bits and Pieces" because of the finely-divided greenish fractal clutter surrounding the midget. The parameter file runs in one hour, and the GIF picture file, which is certainly not clutter, has been safely posted to: and to: Four-dimensional curiosity of the day: In four dimensional space, a hollow rubber sphere may be turned inside-out without tearing and with only the slightest bit of stretching. If it seems impossible, you're still thinking in three dimensions. I had one other curious idle thought today. While eating my lunch, (at McDonalds no less), I remembered how, when I was a child, everything was for the adults. But now that I'm an adult, everything is for the children. How and when did I get passed over? While I'm trying to figure that one out, I'll shut down the fractal factory for this evening and call it a day. Until next time, take care, and the fractals just keep getting better. (IMHO of course.) Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA============================================= MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END FORMULA=============================================== START PARAMETER FILE====================================== FractalBits&Pieces { ; 1hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1 center-mag=-1.216931873805102/+0.2375470855551474/77\ 5933.6/1/-130 params=-1/1.1501/1/1.15/5000/0 float=y maxiter=3000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=155 symmetry=xaxis periodicity=10 colors=000CADCABCA9CA5EB3GE0IH0<3>QQ0SS0SU0SW0SY0SY0\ QW0QW0QU0QU0QS0QS0QS0QQ0<2>QP0QP0QN0QN0QL0QL0QL0QJ0Q\ J0QH0QH0QH0QF0QF0QD0QD0QB0QB0QB0N90K90A70A70A70A50A5\ 0A30A30A30A03A03A03A05A05A05A05A07A07A07A09A09A09A0B\ A0BB0BC0BD0D<4>I03J00K00<10>U00U03W05W09W0BW09Y09Y09\ Y09Z07Z07Z07Z07`05`05`05b05b05b03b03d03d03d00f00f00f\ 00f00h00<4>i00i00k00k00k00m00<4>n00n00p00p00p00p00r0\ 0r00r00t00t00t00t00v00<4>w00w00y00y00y00w00y00<5>z00\ z50<21>zi0zk0zm0zn0zp0zt0zv0zv0zw0zw0zy0<6>zz0zz3<2>\ zz3zz3zz5<2>zz5zz0zz5zzFzzPzzYzzhzzpzzy<11>zzzzzzzzy\ zzwzzwzzvzztzztyzryzpwzpvznwzpyzp<9>zzp } END PARAMETER FILE======================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE========================= FractalBits&Pieces { ; 1hr on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=ident passes=1 center-mag=-1.216931873805102/+0.2375470855551474/77\ 5933.6/1/-130 params=-1/1.1501/1/1.15/5000/0 float=y maxiter=3000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=155 symmetry=xaxis periodicity=10 colors=000CADCABCA9CA5EB3GE0IH0<3>QQ0SS0SU0SW0SY0SY0\ QW0QW0QU0QU0QS0QS0QS0QQ0<2>QP0QP0QN0QN0QL0QL0QL0QJ0Q\ J0QH0QH0QH0QF0QF0QD0QD0QB0QB0QB0N90K90A70A70A70A50A5\ 0A30A30A30A03A03A03A05A05A05A05A07A07A07A09A09A09A0B\ A0BB0BC0BD0D<4>I03J00K00<10>U00U03W05W09W0BW09Y09Y09\ Y09Z07Z07Z07Z07`05`05`05b05b05b03b03d03d03d00f00f00f\ 00f00h00<4>i00i00k00k00k00m00<4>n00n00p00p00p00p00r0\ 0r00r00t00t00t00t00v00<4>w00w00y00y00y00w00y00<5>z00\ z50<21>zi0zk0zm0zn0zp0zt0zv0zv0zw0zw0zy0<6>zz0zz3<2>\ zz3zz3zz5<2>zz5zz0zz5zzFzzPzzYzzhzzpzzy<11>zzzzzzzzy\ zzwzzwzzvzztzztyzryzpwzpvznwzpyzp<9>zzp } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE=========================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Apr 6 09:16:25 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA26858 for philofractal-list; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:15:38 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from ns.krauch.com.py ([207.124.222.109]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA26560 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:33:47 -0500 Received: from Diosnel (router.krauch.com.py [207.124.222.118]) by ns.krauch.com.py (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10363 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:48:33 -0400 Message-ID: <003401be8023$e4452520$e101010a@krauch.com.py> From: "Diosnel Herrnsdorf" To: References: <1.5.4.16.19990405234235.2b4fb3f2@pop.mindspring.com> Subject: RE: [philofractal] FOTD 06-04-99 (Fractal Bits and Pieces) (c) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:52:01 -0300 Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S.A._F.Krauch_&_C=EDa.?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com > Last evening's heavy rain was followed by a perfect day here at > the Center of the Fractal world, (IMHO of course), with a > temperature of 56F 13C, a sapphire sky and gentle breeze making > it perfect for hunting fractals. Lucky you! It's raining here in Paraguay, but the temperature is 26C. Hot and wet weather aren't a good company. > Four-dimensional curiosity of the day: In four dimensional > space, a hollow rubber sphere may be turned inside-out without > tearing and with only the slightest bit of stretching. If it > seems impossible, you're still thinking in three dimensions. You can take a point out of the bounds of a circle without touching the circle. That's because you are a three-dimensional being, and the circle is a two-dimensional one. Being confined to a plane, the circle "thinks" that it has enclosed tightly everything that comes within its perimeter. However, when you see it from a three-dimensional point of view, it's open (out of the limits of the plane). That's what happens when we come to think of four dimensions. Whatever we (three-dimensional beings) think is enclosed within fixed bounds, is in fact open in a higher dimension. > I had one other curious idle thought today. While eating my > lunch, (at McDonalds no less), I remembered how, when I was a > child, everything was for the adults. But now that I'm an > adult, everything is for the children. How and when did I get > passed over? I experimented it too. The fact is that the world never belonged to us. It seems that it is passed from one generation to another, but skipping one (ours). I think I will have to figure it out too. Regards, Diosnel _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Apr 6 16:15:36 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA29024 for philofractal-list; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:15:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from dot.crosswinds.net (dot.crosswinds.net [204.50.152.131]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA28828 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:34:35 -0500 Received: from default (98ADAEE5.ipt.aol.com [152.173.174.229]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28289 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:43:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from nleseul@zurich.crosswinds.net) Message-ID: <000901be8065$3e804b00$e5aead98@default> From: "Nature Leseul" To: Subject: Re: [philofractal] FOTD 06-04-99 (Fractal Bits and Pieces) (c) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:39:30 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com <<> I had one other curious idle thought today. While eating my > lunch, (at McDonalds no less), I remembered how, when I was a > child, everything was for the adults. But now that I'm an > adult, everything is for the children. How and when did I get > passed over? I experimented it too. The fact is that the world never belonged to us. It seems that it is passed from one generation to another, but skipping one (ours). I think I will have to figure it out too.>> Well, I'm currently neither a child nor an adult, so I don't have anything either way. :-P What I want to know is, why is it that you're considered an adult at 12 when it comes to deciding whether you get the special price for meals, but not until 18 when it comes to getting political and social power? There's a way to tie this in with fractals, but it's a fourth-dimensional link that my 3-d mind can't possibly comprehend. :-P !i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i !i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i! i!i! Nature Leseul i!i! i!i! "I wil play you some Mozart, if you like, which wil onlyi!i! i!i! make you weep, but my Don Juan, Christine, burns, i!i! i!i! and yet he is not struck by fire from Heaven... You i!i! i!i! see, Christine, there is some music that is so terriblei!i! i!i! that it consumes all who approach it." i!i! !i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i !i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i! _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Apr 7 02:16:07 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA31831 for philofractal-list; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:15:37 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA31595 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:21:20 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-2iveiem.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.73.214]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA30665 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990407013026.1d97833c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 07-04-99 (Fiery Fractal-Brot) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- April 07, 1999 Fractal enthusiasts: Today was perfect. The clear, bright sky and moderate SE winds were perfect for kite flying, and the temperature of 63F, 17C was perfect for anything else. Since fractal hunting is included in the set of anything else, the temperature was also perfect for fractal hunting. The fractal I found was created by the MandelbrotMix4 formula, the formula that is about to set a record as the formula behind the greatest number of FOTD's. Today's picture is a lot like yesterday's -- a fiery midget surrounded by subdued foreground material, with vague filaments twisting clockwise outward from the midget. I have named the picture "Fiery Fractal-Brot", because that name spontaneously came to mind when I saw the little midget. This image was not run through a separate program to give it that extra kick. The kick was built in, created by Fractint alone. The parameter file takes but 20 minutes on a 486. It will run in only a few minutes on a fast Pentium. But if it is more convenient to download the already completed image, the GIF file may be found on Usenet at: and on the Web at: In yesterday's FOTD, I told that in a space of four dimensions a closed hollow rubber sphere may be turned inside out without tearing and with only a slight amount of stretching. This is because in 4-D space, the rubber shell of the sphere is part of a spherical hyper-ring with surfaces all around it. The closest analogy in 3-D space would be turning a circular, flexible o-ring inside out by twisting it on itself. In 3-D space, we could not see the entirety of what was happening in such a rotation of a hyper-ring. But we could almost see it. Consider a hyper-ring colored in shades of purple graduated from red on the outside to blue on the inside. If the entire circumfrence of this object intersected our 3-space, we would see a hollow sphere red on the outside and blue on the inside. As the hyper-ring began its twisting rotation, we would see the hollow ball gradually change color from red to purple to blue and back as the various parts of the hypersurface were rotated to face outward into our direction. If the rotation were constant, the inside and outside of the sphere would contin- uously change color, alternating from red to blue. If the hyper-ring intersected our space in the perpendicular direction, we would see a flexible o-ring, colored red on the outside, purple on the sides, and blue on the inside, rotating on itself, with the red and blue sides alternately facing outward. I leave it to the reader to visualize the in-between angles of intersection. :-) If the hyper-ring were to be pulled perpendicularly from our space, we would see the material of the spherical shell grow paper thin and vanish like a soap bubble. This type of rotation also explains why a Klein bottle is such an awkward object in 3-D space. And this will be the topic of tomorrow's FOTD. It's now time to close down the Fractal Corner for another day and call it a night. The writer's block that was threatening to put a damper on things seems to be gone, so expect new and greater FOTD's in the days and weeks to come. Until next time, take care. And I wonder if potential fractals existed before the big bang started the universe going. (If the big bang actually happened.) Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA============================================= MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END FORMULA=============================================== START PARAMETER FILE====================================== Fiery_Fractal-Brot { ; 20min on 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1 center-mag=+1.19511774716321/+0.2107608565547625/25\ 99.929/1/-132.5 params=-6/-6/6/-6.006/-20/-90 float=y maxiter=3700 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=17 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000K46U46P59U6CF7FA8I<6>AFbAGeCHhFGiIEjLDj<5>\ cH_fIYiKW<4>xUOwVNwWN<3>ybLycLyeKzfKzfK<3>zbNzbNzcOz\ eO<2>zgQzgQzgRzgSzhS<7>zjW<3>zkOzkMzkLzlK<14>zm5<5>z\ mj<15>zmSzmRzmR<2>zmRzmRzmSzmT<9>zmZzmdzmizmk<45>zmw\ zmwzmv<78>zmz } END PARAMETER FILE======================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE========================= Fiery_Fractal-Brot { ; 20min on 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1 center-mag=+1.19511774716321/+0.2107608565547625/25\ 99.929/1/-132.5 params=-6/-6/6/-6.006/-20/-90 float=y maxiter=3700 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=17 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000K46U46P59U6CF7FA8I<6>AFbAGeCHhFGiIEjLDj<5>\ cH_fIYiKW<4>xUOwVNwWN<3>ybLycLyeKzfKzfK<3>zbNzbNzcOz\ eO<2>zgQzgQzgRzgSzhS<7>zjW<3>zkOzkMzkLzlK<14>zm5<5>z\ mj<15>zmSzmRzmR<2>zmRzmRzmSzmT<9>zmZzmdzmizmk<45>zmw\ zmwzmv<78>zmz } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE=========================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Apr 7 04:15:43 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA32349 for philofractal-list; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 03:15:44 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA32115 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:17:16 -0500 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-30.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.160]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA11582 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:27:09 +1200 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990407145242.006ec884@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 14:52:42 +1200 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] Massive question In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990404140316.007fd1c0@ramos.nl> References: <3.0.3.32.19990404154502.006f113c@mail.nznet.gen.nz> <3.0.5.32.19990403102848.00806650@pop1.tip.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 14:03 04/04/99 +0200, Jack Ruijs wrote: >At 03:45 PM 4/4/99 +1200, Morgan wrote: > >>But the question of what happens to the curvature is a good one. You get >>gravitational radiation, which is in the form of gravitational waves (or >>gravitons). When a normal star collapses it does not do so into a nice and >>perfectly symmetrical spheroid immediately, because of all the >>inhomogenities and distinguishing features of the star. The resulting bumps >>on the resulting event horizon, however, rapidly (limited to light speed) >>flatten out, the resulting change to the hole's gravitational field being >>radiated away at the speed of light. > >You know -I assume, much better than I do- that this all is of a very high >hypothetical nature. Does the fact that gravitional waves propagate with >the speed of light, directly follow from the GR? > Yes - a supralight velocity for gravity would allow FTL communication. A Big GR No-No. >>The rubber-sheet analogy does obscure this a little. I sometimes think more >>in terms of a thin plastic film over the surface of a pool. The film is >>very elastic, so it can deform as much as necessary, but springs back >>rather than leave stretch marks. > >This "springing back" of course is just the key point of my "thought >experiment". Why does it spring back? Or does it only "seem" to spring >back, because of the general expansion of spacetime? > I just put the plastic film in there so that the water didn't get splashed about. The 'springing back' can be regarded as a result of the fact that the curvature can be no less than a certain minimum amount (one graviton's worth) - since the curvature is getting radiated away, eventually it will be all gone with the last graviton. >>.... It's such a clean system, in fact, that it >>effectively serves as a General Relativity laboratory. And it has so far >>confirmed every prediction GR has made about it, including its spiralling >>together as the result of energy being lost somewhere. > >This indeed is a very beautiful effect of nature. Astronomists are in >general blessed with such a beautiful and vast laboratory, but most of all >a clean one! This could easily be different if tiny particles wandered >around in space to absorb most of the radiation we observe ... > Sorry; I was using "clean" in a conceptual sense. Although having too much dust around would have caused problems. What I meant by "clean" in this case is that the whole system was so well surveyed, and the relevant forces at work on it were so well understood; there's the tidal drag each star has on the other due to their not being point-particles, there's the coupling of magnetic fields (which is made easier by the fact that the stars' bulks are superconducting), their orbital velocity and masses, there's the fact there are only two bodies in the system, and anything else is far enough away to be ignored, there's the quiescent nature of the stars themselves (standard astophysics says they're just iron-plated spheres of neutronium). It's probably about as well understood as a raytraced living-room scene. _That_ sort of clean... >>The prediction GR makes about is that this energy is being lost as >>gravitational radiation. And the predicted amount of loss by this mechanism >>matches (to the limits of observation) the actual lost from the system's >>momentum (once other sources of energy loss related to the fact that they >>are stars with magnetic fields is taken into account). > >Do you really MEAN "prediction", aren't the other losses calculated AFTER >the facts and the prediction itself were known? > Yep, prediction. Like I said, it's a very clean system - the mathematics is all there and all tested. And "prediction" because the gravitational radiation has not been detected yet :-). If you ignore the effects of gravitational radiation from the system's energy budget, then you're left with a hole which _just happens_ to match the size that GR computations predicts for the gravitational radiation. >Note, this is not an attack >on science in general or GR in specific, I just have a very great >sceptisism against the word "prediction" when concerning experiments with a >very high assumption-character and calculations done _after_ the >experiment. Like the experiments you describe about gravitation-detectors, > Like I said, the experiments haven't been done yet (the LIGO telescopes are yet to be built). And as for high assumption-character, there isn't anything relevant I can think of about PSR1913+16 that could be called "high-assumption". The assumptions at work are that the laws of physics _there_ are the same as the laws of physics _here_. And the relevant laws of physics _here_ have been so thoroughly tested and work so well that no physicist loses any sleep over them (except the hardcore theorists, and they don't seem to sleep anyway). This includes GR, which is a good thing because we need it for GPS to work. The tidal effects the stars have on each other could be handled by Newton (with maybe a quick refresher course) and the magnetic field issues would be familiar to Gauss. >there are many other such modern measurements which all are at the edge of >certainty-uncertainty. > I'm not sure what this means - if the outcome was certain there wouldn't be many who'd be bothered to do the experiment. >To name a few; measuring up to a millionth of a >degree of the background-radiation, measuring the number of neutrinos >coming from the sun, visualizing giant structures in space and last but not >least the old and most inaccurate measurements done and accepted by >science; the measurement of the distance of a celestial body. > This is why experimental results are published with error bars. (The error bars in COBE's data on the Universe's blackbody spectrum were so small though that the dots used to mark the data points overwhelmed them. The graph that compared those data points with the theoretical blackbody radiation curve is probably the only single graph to receive a standing ovation.) Ain't experimental science wonderful? :-) >>The current designs are intended to be sensitive enough to measure the >>gravitational radiation from PSR1913+16. It would then also be strong >>enough to tell when a black hole swallows something big, by the brief >>deformation of and subsequent radiation from the event horizon. > >I think it will be a great experiment, but I suspect that it will go the >same way as the neutrino-detector, > ??? >or probably much worse, because the >measurements will lie well below the noise-floor. > That's the first thought in the experimenters working on LIGO technology - how to get the telescope to respond to gravitational radiation _and not to any other kind of vibration_. I have to admit that a few sand-filled tyres to prop up the lab bench is not going to do it, but hey - if it was easy half of 'em probably wouldn't bother trying. >But hopefully something >can be detected. But to be specific because I really do not know, how can >one point the detector to the pulsar with just an L-shaped mass? > Well, if the pulsar is in line with one of the arms of the L, then that arm would lengthen and shorten as the waves passed through its location, while the other arm at right angles would just move from side to side a bit, without changing length. Conversely if the other arm is in line with the pulsar, and a suitable linear combination of effects if the pulsar were to be on a line in between, with one stretching more than the other. This only gives one line, to be sure, but there should be more than one such telescope anyway, preferably with one 90 degrees further around the Earth. You could wait for a few hours while the Earth rotates your setup for you, but then you would lose positional resolution for one-off events like stellar collapse or neutron-star collisions. >Furthermore aren't massive movements in the earths interior (or just below >the crust) disturbing any measurment of this kind? > See above. >> .... Placing the telescope on >>the moon has the advantage that one does not need the tunnels as such, >>because vacuum is alreay there for the taking. So now one can have really >>_big_ (and sensitive) gravity telescopes by mounting the lasers and mirrors >>and such on mountain ranges around craters. > >This sounds indeed much more promising. > I think so too, but do you think anyone can get the funding to go back to the Moon? >>>What is the difference between mass and the curvature itself? >>> >>does it? > >Does it or is it? (:->) > It doesn't answer it, does it? Apropos of a recent post by Jim Muth, I've just realised what's been bugging me about his 'The escaping gravitons carry the information about the mass of the singularity within.' It's not the singularity that has the mass. It is a singularity - volume zero, density infinite. m=DV. Mass undefined. A singularity - where physics breaks down and all bets are off. If you regard the Universe as being everything that follows the laws of nature, then the singularity represents a point which is no longer part of the Universe. Maybe there is no difference between mass and curvature - but this is not what I was asking in the first place. I wanted to know where the mass came from. Identifying it with spacetime curvature doesn't work, because you can make the argument (and with the even horizon there who can claim otherwise) taht a black hole is made of pure curvature. With nothing _there_ except extremely warped spacetime - like scar tissue - there's nothing to have mass. The event horizon is just a location in spacetime where escape velocity from the hole reaches that of light; pure geometry. With bite. As you watch something fall into the hole, it never _quite_ reaches it. Radiation from the infalling material _still_ manages to creep out, at ever longer wavelengths, as it loses energy in moving against the gravitational gradient long after it allegedly "fell in". By all measurements that can be made, the stuff _still_ hasn't reached the horizon. And will never get there. You can imagine all this stuff as piling up on the event horizon, like layers of sediment. So it's all - mass and everything - still outside the hole. If you wonder how the black hole's gravity gets out, you might as well ask how is it that a black hole can be electrically charged. If the black hole were to withold its gravity, and hence appear massless (and I presume if it swallowed its electrical charge as well), this would be a serious crisis indeed. Most physicists live with the idea of a singularity lurking inside a black hole - we'll never get to hear from it anyway - but a mass simply vanishing would be a big problem, violating as it would the law of conservation of mass-energy. Physicists would much rather have infinitesimal and safely hidden flaws in the universe than lose this law; since it is mathematically equivalent (via a beastie called Noether's Theorem) to the principle that physics be time-symmetric. If a black hole (or anything else) was allowed to vanish and take its mass with it, then there could be no confidence that the laws of nature today would have anything to do with the laws of nature tomorrow. I'm not talking about improving our understanding in the face of our own ignorance, I'm talking about the laws themselves. And when I say "today" and "tomorrow", I'm using those terms literally. If mass-energy conservation were to be violated, prediction would become impossible, because one would never know what rules the Universe was playing by from one moment to the next. It seems a few event-horizon-wrapped singularities are worth that price. Morgan L. Owens PS: Gravity is not to be confused with gravitional radiation - the latter is gravitons doing their particle/wave thing as they travel through space, the former is an interaction between massive objects that is mediated by virtual gravitons (in the same way that you can't walk through walls due to the exchange of virtual photons). _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Apr 7 18:59:02 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA04410 for philofractal-list; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:56:30 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA04379 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:47:44 -0500 Received: from default (vp236-29.worldonline.nl [195.241.236.29]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA23524 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 00:54:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990408005222.0081a2a0@pop1.tip.nl> X-Sender: t356237@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 00:52:22 +0200 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jack Ruijs Subject: [philofractal] Massive question In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990407145242.006ec884@mail.nznet.gen.nz> References: <3.0.5.32.19990404140316.007fd1c0@ramos.nl> <3.0.3.32.19990404154502.006f113c@mail.nznet.gen.nz> <3.0.5.32.19990403102848.00806650@pop1.tip.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 02:52 PM 4/7/99 +1200, Morgan wrote: >Yes - a supralight velocity for gravity would allow FTL communication. A >Big GR No-No. This was not really the question ... (:->). No faster than light communication is more or less a consequence of GR, it is not the same as a positive proof for the limited speed of gravitation (it only is, if you consider modern theories as absolutely correct). >I just put the plastic film in there so that the water didn't get splashed >about. The 'springing back' can be regarded as a result of the fact that >the curvature can be no less than a certain minimum amount (one graviton's >worth) - since the curvature is getting radiated away, eventually it will >be all gone with the last graviton. You already answered the question in stating that gravitation travels with the speed of light. >Sorry; I was using "clean" in a conceptual sense. Although having too much >dust around would have caused problems. No sorry needed, I understood your "cleanness" very well, I just added my own "cleanness" and the beauty of it ... >It's probably about as well understood as a raytraced living-room scene. >_That_ sort of clean... This I can understand also, but what about the pulsar-effect itself? Is this effect really understood well in order that the loss of energy can be calculated accurately? And what IF, and I mean IF, the Big Bang didn't exist? What if there were a force unknown to man that takes care of the red-shift of the light from far-away stars? What if there were mass around the pulsar that isn't visible? What if the correlation between the measurement and calculation is just coincidence, because I do not believe that the measurement and calculation are equal to about 0.1 percent ... (optimistic) >Yep, prediction. Like I said, it's a very clean system - the mathematics is >all there and all tested. And "prediction" because the gravitational >radiation has not been detected yet :-). No, no, no, I didn't mean that ... I meant the things that _were_ known, were they calculated/measured before the actual experiment? Note: I accept the gravitational radiation as a valuable prediction with no problems, it is the things we _do_ "seem" to know that I question ... >... And the relevant laws of physics _here_ have >been so thoroughly tested and work so well that no physicist loses any >sleep over them (except the hardcore theorists, and they don't seem to >sleep anyway). (:->) >>there are many other such modern measurements which all are at the edge of >>certainty-uncertainty. >> >I'm not sure what this means - if the outcome was certain there wouldn't be >many who'd be bothered to do the experiment. I disagree, I would for one ... (:->) I meant that performing measurements is a very serious and very difficult profession, only few people (relatively speaking) know enough about it to do it correctly. The better part are -of course- present in the world of physics, but this does not mean that they are all capable ... >This is why experimental results are published with error bars. (The error >bars in COBE's data on the Universe's blackbody spectrum were so small >though that the dots used to mark the data points overwhelmed them. The >graph that compared those data points with the theoretical blackbody >radiation curve is probably the only single graph to receive a standing >ovation.) I would give a standig ovation to other graphs ... (:->) If the Mandelbrot-set can be called a graph it will be the first one, the others are; the plot of evolutionary differentiation against time, a blueprint of the pyramids of Gizeh, a blueprint of an ant's genome, the periodic table, the visualisation of quarks, or just the visualisation of a molecule of water ... Just for info: The article about the COBE-satelite in SA, and the corresponding pictures raised many, many questions. I only remembered that the article was a perfect example of creative writing, in which the real issues are masterly ommitted. I have to look it up again, to know what I mean with it. >Ain't experimental science wonderful? :-) Yes! We really do not disagree that much ... it are just trivial details ... >>I think it will be a great experiment, but I suspect that it will go the >>same way as the neutrino-detector, >> >??? I meant, not to measure what will be expected. I didn't say it was a bad thing ... (:->), it can nevetheless be very interesting or revolutionary. >>or probably much worse, because the >>measurements will lie well below the noise-floor. This really is much worse ... >I think so too, but do you think anyone can get the funding to go back to >the Moon? Yes, if people can get other people to bomb Jougoslavia with many many financial losses, I can imagine that other people can get other people to invest money for such an interesting project ... >>>>What is the difference between mass and the curvature itself? >>>> >>>does it? >> >>Does it or is it? (:->) >> >It doesn't answer it, does it? No it isn't. (:->) >Maybe there is no difference between mass and curvature - but this is not >what I was asking in the first place. I wanted to know where the mass came >from. That's true, but I just wanted to resphrase the question (in more words than needed); "Where does the _curvature_ come from?" >If mass-energy conservation were to be violated, prediction would become >impossible, because one would never know what rules the Universe was >playing by from one moment to the next. Only if it behaves randomly or if we can not know the gradient. If the laws change according to other laws it just are different laws ... but still laws ... >PS: Gravity is not to be confused with gravitional radiation - the latter >is gravitons doing their particle/wave thing as they travel through space, >the former is an interaction between massive objects that is mediated by >virtual gravitons (in the same way that you can't walk through walls due to >the exchange of virtual photons). This I shall not dare ask to explain ... Gravitation is gravitation, I do not (yet) acknowledge gravitons ... Greetings, Jack Ruijs P.S. Morgan, I think you are the correct person to ask the question; Suppose the Big Bang theory is correct, what then does expand according to this theory? Is it that 3D-space expands and that 1 meter will become 2 meters (A), or that 3D-space contracts and that it gets bigger in 4D but 1 meter still stays 1