From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 02:12:46 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA13499 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:14:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA13460 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:05:06 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-37ka9gp.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.38.25]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA28487 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:00:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:00:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990201015650.28e72e20@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 01-02-99, (Emerald Lightning) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- February 01, 1999 Fractal visionaries: Today was perfect here at Fractal Central. The sky was clear, the temperature was 35F 2C, and I found a good fractal. As has been the case so often recently, I dove into my MandelbrotMix5 formula to come up with the image. What I found is a picture of a midget surrounded by emerald streaks of lightning, slightly yellowed, presumably by age. To create the fractal, I subtracted Z^1.11 from Z^(-1.11) before adding 1/C. The fractal that resulted features two quite distorted Mandeloid figures, with lightning filaments radiating in several directions. I found today's little midget way out near the tip of one of these filaments. The scene is a vast mass of discontinuities, although the coloring of today's picture hides most of these. Many more interesting scenes appear to lie in the parent fractal, which I have filed in my 'worth a further search' directory. I have named the picture 'Emerald Lightning', a name that I'm sure must have been used many times already. But it has never been used by me, so 'Emerald Lightning' it will be. The parameter file is a fast one, even so the GIF file of the picture has been posted to: also to the FOTD web site at: I sometimes ponder the greatest of all fractal questions -- what is the ultimate fractal? To begin, I'm not certain that there is a single ultimate fractal. And then I wonder how I would recognize the ultimate fractal if it ever came my way. My usual reply is that the Mandelbrot set is the best candidate for the ultimate fractal, with perhaps the universe a close second. The M-set is like a catalog of all possible fractal features. It has somewhere within it every feature of every Julia set. The higher-order Mandeloids might at first appear to be entirely different, but closer examination reveals that they mirror the features of the Z^2 M-set with but small variation. The familiar cardioid shape is found in formulas beyond counting. Today's formula, Z^(-1.11)-Z^1.11+(1/C), is a single example of the unexpected appearance of the M-set. How many of these Mandel-midgets potentially exist in all possible fractals? Perhaps an infinity raised to the power of infinity. My other candidate for ultimate fractal, the universe, presents more of a problem. The point in question is whether or not the universe is a fractal. If it is indeed a fractal, then it is obviously the winner. But it certainly is not a fractal of the kind we compute and display on our computer screens. The fractals that we enjoy are built of numbers. The universe is also built of numbers. If anyone doubts this, I suggest a quick glance through a book of advanced physics. But despite this similarity, the universe is far different from a fractal on a screen. Computer fractals are infinitely divisible; the universe is not. If we were to enlarge a piece of physical matter to the size of the current limits of fp math, we would pass beyond the uncertainty limit and see nothing. And there are other problems, not the least of which is the identity of the ongoing fractal calculation? So if the universe is a fractal, it is a type of fractal so far unknown to us. Taking these things into consideration, I must withhold judgement until the universe presents a valid ID, proving that it actually is a fractal. By default, this leaves the Mandelbrot set holding the title of ultimate fractal. That's it for today, fractal hunters. I'll be here tomorrow with more fractal gossip and perhaps a bit of fractosophy. Until then, take care, and when searching for fractals, don't do anything radical. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA================================================ MandelbrotMix5 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+1, c=pixel: z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c^l, |z| < 100 } END FORMULA================================================== START PARAMETER FILE========================================= Emerald_Lightning { ; 8-1/2min on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix5 center-mag=+0.052265288497\ 60387/-0.10648829885999410/2.704731e+009/1/-102.499 params=-1/1.11/1/-1.11/0/-2 float=y maxiter=1500 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=22 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000053053<5>0H33J48L6CN7<5>bvF`vDhuBfu9nu7ru5w\ q8wnBwkEzgH<2>zYPzVSxSV<2>oIb<4>w2p<5>xLpxOpwNm<2>yMg\ zMezMczMa<10>zJFzJDzG1<5>zCIzCLzDO<9>zNn<7>zVX<7>zbhz\ cjzckzcm<4>zct<18>zcB<10>zcGzcGzcF<18>zc4zc4zc5<12>zc\ FzcGzdGzeH<6>zlMzmMzmNzmN<17>zmWzma<3>zmc<6>zm9zmBzms\ zms<5>zm3<3>zmC<6>zm1<4>zmQzmUzmX<8>zmozmnzmS } END PARAMETER FILE=========================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE============================ Emerald_Lightning { ; 8-1/2min on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix5 center-mag=+0.052265288497\ 60387/-0.10648829885999410/2.704731e+009/1/-102.499 params=-1/1.11/1/-1.11/0/-2 float=y maxiter=1500 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=22 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000053053<5>0H33J48L6CN7<5>bvF`vDhuBfu9nu7ru5w\ q8wnBwkEzgH<2>zYPzVSxSV<2>oIb<4>w2p<5>xLpxOpwNm<2>yMg\ zMezMczMa<10>zJFzJDzG1<5>zCIzCLzDO<9>zNn<7>zVX<7>zbhz\ cjzckzcm<4>zct<18>zcB<10>zcGzcGzcF<18>zc4zc4zc5<12>zc\ FzcGzdGzeH<6>zlMzmMzmNzmN<17>zmWzma<3>zmc<6>zm9zmBzms\ zms<5>zm3<3>zmC<6>zm1<4>zmQzmUzmX<8>zmozmnzmS } frm:MandelbrotMix5 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+1, c=pixel: z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c^l, |z| < 100 } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE============================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 04:12:45 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13866 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:12:46 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA13775 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:43:00 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-11.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.141]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA31927 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:37:29 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990201200822.006d29d8@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:08:22 +1300 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] Re: Semantics In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990131124313.2b577e5c@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 12:46 31/01/99 -0500, Jim Muth wrote: >At 06:10 PM 1/30/99 -0800, Ray M. wrote: > >>For my part, I hope the 'heaven' theory ends up being right, >>because there is a slight chance that we might end up there, >>and wouldn't it be fun to see what the outcome of the ongoing >>differences would be. >>But I don't think that will happen. Do you? > >My gut feeling is a strong, 'perhaps it will happen'. > And there's no reason why not. Unfalsifiable speculation: the Universe as we know it is a historical computer simulation (not necessarily accurate!) conducted by our nth-degree descendants as an anthropoligical investigation. When we die, our descendants are capable of kitting our selves out with whatever they need to operate in their reality. Or they could just port us over to their "Heaven" simulation (they have ethical qualms about uninstalling and deleting sentient software?). >>Enjoy it all now! > >So far I've been enjoying it tremendously -- almost as much as >I enjoy fractals. :-) > Even if it's not the only life we get - act like it is. "You mean, that was IT???" "Well, yeah. You didn't expect another one, did you?" "But I want another one!" "What, and have you waste that one as well?" Morgan L. Owens _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 04:15:10 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13870 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:12:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA13776 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:43:01 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-11.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.141]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA31934 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:37:31 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990201211301.006c9b00@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:13:01 +1300 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] The Ultimate Fractal In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990131192437.007d3e50@pop1.tip.nl> References: <1.5.4.16.19990130140804.083f9724@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 19:24 31/01/99 +0100, Jack Ruijs wrote: > > >Here some of my "wild" ideas, more or less as I recall them: > >X=real axis, Y=imaginary axis, what would Z be? >If XY=complex plane, would XYZ be a super-complex space? >if i*i=-1, would q*q be -i?, but what then will be -q, 1*1? > > >Has someone else other ideas, or does someone else know any sites related >to this subject? > I did much the same thing at around the same time. I had the idea of extending the complex plane into three dimensions (I called the third axis the "digressional" axis, 'cause I was in the middle of a maths class at the time). I tried all sorts of things, but when I had three dimensions what I had was a horrible clunky thing (and the "complex plane" itself usually didn't work either) or I had an extra fourth term floating around in an entirely different fourth dimension of its own. I probably blew away three maths classes trying to get digressionals to work. Years later, with more mathematics under my belt (and a copy of Fractint on my computer!) I was digging through my old notes from those days and came across the dozen or so pages I had filled with stuff about my digressionals. It was kind of depressing to look back and see just how close I had come to reinventing quaternions (though by a totally different route from Hamilton). Morgan L. Owens _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 04:15:10 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA13874 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 03:13:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA13773 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 02:42:59 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-11.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.141]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA31924 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:37:26 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990201195927.006cb49c@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 19:59:27 +1300 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] New Religion In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990131125236.007ccc90@pop1.tip.nl> References: <3.0.3.32.19990131133628.006cece4@mail.nznet.gen.nz> <3.0.5.32.19990130132701.007d2480@pop1.tip.nl> <3.0.5.32.19990129201044.007cbd30@pop1.tip.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 12:52 31/01/99 +0100, you wrote: >At 01:36 PM 1/31/99 +1300, Morgan wrote: > >>That's probably the difference. Religions claim that the real fundamental >>questions are inherently unanswerable by humans; Science makes no such >>injunction. >> > >Do all religions do that? Isn't it true that anyone can come up with a new >religion and states otherwise? > No doubt. I'm not entirely sure what I meant when I wrote that paragraph now; it seems to have suffered at the hands of my clumsy editing - it certainly doesn't read like >I also do not think science states they can >answer any fundamental question. > Neither do I. I just don't think that there is anything in present human experience that science will never be able to eventually have a crack at understanding. >>Religion is not interested with answering the fundamental questions of >>reality, as it presupposes that the answers are already available >>(basically "God did it"). So the answers a person following a religion >>receives will be those that have already been codified and set out - and >>woe betide any heretic that dares argue with them. > >I have to disagree, some religions do try to answer the fundamental >questions. Take for example taoism, the basic idea behind this "religion" >is that everthing follows the Tao, and the term stays as vague as the >universe itself. Although vague, I must state that this "concept" answers >much more fundamental questions I can think of than any modern fundamental >science. > So "God did it" (or rather, "The Tao did it (whatever 'The Tao' is and whatever 'it' is)") works as an explanation for you. >>It can >>be _hard_ to rewire all the knowledge you've already packed into your brain >>so that you can accommodate a new interpretation. > >As you know, history proves that science has been wrong many many times > And will be so again many many times to come >(almost always concerning fundamental science), > Since this is where it reaches the limits of its understanding > isn't this just a proof >that science is filled with prefilled beliefs? > But the difference between the prejudices and a priori beliefs of science and those of religion is that science does allow for the possibility that they may be incorrect. For (for example) Fundamentalist Christians to suggest otherwise is to risk eternal damnation. Another example is the legislated infallibility of the Pope. After all, science admits its fallibility and is capable of proving itself wrong given enough time and enough testing - Newtonian gravity was the Ultimate in mechanics for two and a half centuries - and science is engaged in an ongoing effort to finding and repairing the flaws in its understanding of the Universe. And don't forget that scientists are just as human as everyone else - this is why I'm distinguishing between science and scientists - individual scientists can be just as close-minded and bigoted as the next guy, especially if they're close-minded about things that have stood the test of time for so long. This is why it's sometimes said that a new paradigm cannot gain sway until all the adherents of the old paradigm have died. Science has been wrong before, and will be wrong again (or rather, it still is wrong on some things). I don't know of any religions that will admit anything similar about its tenets. >>>This is also just the problem. Science shouldn't have to work like that. If >>>science has an open mind it should not have any assumption that could be >>>overtrown. >>> >>But that's exactly what it means to have an open mind - the realisation >>that you _might_ be wrong and that your assumptions may well have to be >>overthrown in the light of new knowledge. > >To me an open mind is not to favour any option above others before having >proof to do so. > In which case you can never have any grounds on which to base a proof, because how do you prove that your grounds are valid? If science were to have assumptions that were listed in a big book somewhere under a heading "Thou Shalt Not Doubt This" - then it would be a religion. Remember, the motto for the Royal Society is "Nullis in Verbum" - loosely, "Don't take anybody's word for it". Science as it exists today is almost certainly wrong (and I can think of at least one place where it must be), and there may be all sorts of personal committments to one part or another, but it can only work with what it's got. And what it's got to work with is what has worked so far. But at this stage I think we're drifting away from the topic of this group, so unless someone can find a way to bring it back to fractals (or mathematics, at least), all I can say is that the field of human discourse is probably itself fractal in structure. Morgan L. Owens. "One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike - and yet it is the most precious thing we have." Albert Einstein _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 15:12:56 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01260 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:12:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA01038 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:31:15 -0600 Received: from default (vp233-187.worldonline.nl [195.241.233.187]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09529 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:35:36 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990201203030.007cd480@pop1.tip.nl> X-Sender: t356237@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:30:30 +0100 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jack Ruijs Subject: [philofractal] The Ultimate Fractal In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990201211301.006c9b00@mail.nznet.gen.nz> References: <3.0.5.32.19990131192437.007d3e50@pop1.tip.nl> <1.5.4.16.19990130140804.083f9724@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 09:13 PM 2/1/99 +1300, Morgan wrote: >I tried all sorts of things, but when I had three dimensions what I had was >a horrible clunky thing This sounds, although it has been a long time, very familiar. >(and the "complex plane" itself usually didn't work >either) That's why I also tried the algabraic method, where you can set up the formulas in that way, such that if z=0 the normal formulas resulted. The first step is then viewing the XZ-plane (knowing that the XY-plane results in the normal set), and judging that result. As I recall, I got my best results with the algabraic method, but it still didn't look correct. >... or I had an extra fourth term floating around in an entirely >different fourth dimension of its own. I probably blew away three maths >classes trying to get digressionals to work. This is just what science is ... (:->) This swimming away from the mainstream or even swimming against the stream, is what makes science great and so succesfull. Greetings, Jack Ruijs _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 15:21:09 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01268 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:14:13 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA01035 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:31:11 -0600 Received: from default (vp233-187.worldonline.nl [195.241.233.187]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09409 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:35:23 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990201201529.007d8520@pop1.tip.nl> X-Sender: t356237@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 20:15:29 +0100 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jack Ruijs Subject: [philofractal] New Religion In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990201195927.006cb49c@mail.nznet.gen.nz> References: <3.0.5.32.19990131125236.007ccc90@pop1.tip.nl> <3.0.3.32.19990131133628.006cece4@mail.nznet.gen.nz> <3.0.5.32.19990130132701.007d2480@pop1.tip.nl> <3.0.5.32.19990129201044.007cbd30@pop1.tip.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 07:59 PM 2/1/99 +1300, Morgan wrote: >So "God did it" (or rather, "The Tao did it (whatever 'The Tao' is and >whatever 'it' is)") works as an explanation for you. No, not exactly. It is hard to describe, but it is more dynamic (contrary to "did") and less materialistic (contrary to "it"). The best explanation (at least for me) is that there is a certain "driving-force" that drives it all. >But the difference between the prejudices and a priori beliefs of science >and those of religion is that science does allow for the possibility that >they may be incorrect. For (for example) Fundamentalist Christians to >suggest otherwise is to risk eternal damnation. Another example is the >legislated infallibility of the Pope. Aha, we reach an important point. Science doesn't HAVE to do this, it is to my opinion a choice of individuals or groups, scientists who don't accept potential false ideas could be real scientists too. For example; scientists who do not follow the ideas of the general scientific community that the Big Bang has been proven by the observation that the background-radiation is very evenly distributed, don't have to be non-scientists. It are those scientists -who do not necessarily disagree with the Big Bang Theory- who keep the different options open, who will have the less rewiring-problems nowadays concerning dark matter, inflation or the new problem that the universe keeps expanding (probably) by a certain mysterious force ... The open-minded scientist who keeps gathering the data without forming an uncertain theory will not very often have to deal with the "rewiring" problem, which is probably the cause for the biggest delays in scientific history. I use "probably" because both ways have their advantages and disadvantages. It's just a personal choice, but both ways are scientific, albeit a bit different ... >>To me an open mind is not to favour any option above others before having >>proof to do so. >> >In which case you can never have any grounds on which to base a proof, >because how do you prove that your grounds are valid? That's just my point! Acknowledging this fact is just what I meant with: "Science is a religion"! Don't take me wrong, I don't see this as a wrong thing, I just think that accepting this fact makes science in general, more open minded ... >If science were to have assumptions that were listed in a big book >somewhere under a heading "Thou Shalt Not Doubt This" - then it would be a >religion. Remember, the motto for the Royal Society is "Nullis in Verbum" - >loosely, "Don't take anybody's word for it". As you will probably know, this sounds good in theory, but the practice follows a path that is closer to the opposite of it ... >But at this stage I think we're drifting away from the topic of this group, >so unless someone can find a way to bring it back to fractals (or >mathematics, at least), all I can say is that the field of human discourse >is probably itself fractal in structure. O.K. (:->) Greetings, Jack Ruijs _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 17:13:02 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA01958 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:12:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA01751 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:33:40 -0600 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01263 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:38:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd001040; Mon Feb 1 14:38:08 1999 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:37:41 -0700 (MST) From: Kerry Mitchell To: philofractal@icd.com Subject: Re: [philofractal] The Ultimate Fractal In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990201203030.007cd480@pop1.tip.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Jack Ruijs wrote: > At 09:13 PM 2/1/99 +1300, Morgan wrote: > > >I tried all sorts of things, but when I had three dimensions what I had was > >a horrible clunky thing > > This sounds, although it has been a long time, very familiar. There's a mathematical reason why 3 dimensional extensions of complex numbers don't work so well. Something to do with "rings" and "fields" and other terms I don't quite understand. I tried to develop a 3d number system this way: t = x*1 + y*i + z*j, where 1 is the standard real 1 (the real unit), i is the first imaginary unit, and j is the second imaginary unit (this i is not necessarily the same as the complex i). Then, addition is defined by adding corresponding parts, like adding complex numbers. For multiplication, a matrix needs to be filled out, for multiplying A * B, where A and B are any of the 3 units (x, y, and z are real numbers). B 1 i j 1 a b c A i d e f j g h k For complex numbers, a=1, b=d=i, and e=-1. For my extension, I wanted it to be a superset of the real numbers, so a=1. I also wanted real*imaginary to be imaginary, so b=d=i and c=g=j. That left defining the imaginary * imaginary products, e, f, h, and k. I also wanted the magnitude of t1 * t2 to be the same as the magnitude of t1 * the magnitude of t2, like in complex. This would make it easier to think about analyzing this system with the Mandelbrot formula t = t*t + c. However, I wasn't able to find any suitable choices for e, f, h, and k that let the magnitude condition work out. I suspect that this is connected to the lack of 3d number systems in general. The standard extensions are quaternions (4d) and octonions (8d). Kerry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry Mitchell lkmitch@primenet.com www.primenet.com/~lkmitch/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 17:14:17 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA01962 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:13:14 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mail-01.cdsnet.net (mail-01.cdsnet.net [206.107.16.35]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA01668 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:15:59 -0600 Received: (qmail 16769 invoked from network); 1 Feb 1999 21:20:32 -0000 Received: from d01a862e.dip.cdsnet.net (HELO default) (208.26.134.46) by mail.cdsnet.net with SMTP; 1 Feb 1999 21:20:32 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990201133128.00685e34@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: elmont@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 13:31:28 -0800 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Ray Montgomery Subject: [philofractal] On-going Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Relating to no one statement but to a generalization only. Most differences between those who 'favor' science and those who 'favor' religion and based less on reason than on personal preferences - or conditioning - built up over a lifetime. The prefernces or 'leanings' meet with opposition and man has a disposition to take stronger and stronger stances when meeting oppositon - and what happens is the 'shades of grey' fall through the gaps and 'resolves' become stronger and stronger till finally we face ever-increasing and ever-more-formidable differences between the two 'outlooks.' (Notice, please, that I put many words in semi-quotes so that the ever-present semantic problem will, hopefully, be at least diminished.) It seems that the 'science' resistance is based on a 'branch' (not sect) of the religious that appears to be furthest 'out'. I keep reading 'fundamentalist' in some of the arguments - and, personally, Ii would agree with them -"to a degree." But I would equally take a 'gentle' stance against those 'in science' who claim to have the 'open' and 'inquiring' minds who just have no use for "them" - the religious. We all know that there is ALWAYS a middle ground. I can use my own stance as an example. I think the beauty of science is a rare and always fascinating and almost always ultimately rewarding 'condition'. I also believe that many religions are beautiful, some almost poetic. But I have personally found that it is the machinations of man that has distorted and or twisted both religion and science into shapes that are less attractive than they should or could be. So, 'religion' usually an organized and/or unified thrust of life, is, finally, not for me. My own personal, private religion, a singular belief in the existance of God, need not be controlled by a minister, preacher, priest or any man, just as my belief in the need for, the beauty, the rewards for true science can not be controlled by anyone or anything other than the science itself. I was drawn to fractals, as I have stated, by the book "Chaos." I was so intrigued, fascinated by the whole 'disciplines fallen through the cracks' and the new work that is being done that I set about trying to find the "fractal" feeling that it might be slight chance to 'share' in the scientific world. But it was also a profound explosion of thought that here was a present - an infinity of presents - that BOTH God and science presented to me, mine for the taking - mine from God - mine from science. Man's vagaries, whims and PERSONAL needs are behind the ills - not God - not science. If religion can be such an anathema by its distortions - so can science - because it is not religion and it is not science that are to be blamed. "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars but in ourselves......" This is rambling and poorly organized, I know, but it is the first time I have ever tried to speak of this on paper. As Sylvie says "Enjoy!" (Fractals, I mean.) Ray _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 22:13:18 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA03303 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:13:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (root@eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.90]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03273 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:05:52 -0600 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA55788 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:42:23 -0700 Received: from holly.colostate.edu (res099037.HALLS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07158 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:42:22 -0700 Message-ID: <36B657F4.59B8AEC2@holly.colostate.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:42:12 -0700 From: Xylen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philofractal@icd.com Subject: Re: [philofractal] On-going References: <3.0.3.32.19990201133128.00685e34@mail.cdsnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Ray Montgomery wrote: > "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars but in > ourselves......" I find a lot to agree with in this post. It has seemed to me that a lot of arguments between 'science' and 'religion' amount to nothing more than a difference of opinions on the meanings of a few words. For example, in another post here, someone said that science doesn't have a book with a chapter "Things you shall not doubt," and since religion does, the two ideas are separate. I have a book that has such a chapter. It is called "First twenty-eight propositions of Euclid" Admittedly, these propositions can be proven, but they all rely on a few articles of faith. What exactly is a line, point or plane? As I see it, belief in science relies on 'unknowable' things just as much as religion does. Science and religion are self similar concepts within the Great Fractal of the Universe. Xylen If a "rose by any other name does not smell as sweet" is a fractal by any other name still a fractal? -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx GO BRONCO'S----Winners of the 98 Super Bowl and the 99 Super Bowl http://members.tripod.com/~Xylen xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Mon Feb 1 23:13:34 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA03567 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:13:10 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from dot.crosswinds.net ([204.50.152.131]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03378 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:32:01 -0600 Received: from default (215-109-201.ipt.aol.com [171.215.109.201]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29150 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:38:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nleseul@zurich.crosswinds.net) Message-ID: <000d01be4e5d$377cbf80$cc0ad1ab@default> From: "Nature Leseul" To: Subject: Re: [philofractal] On-going Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:36:15 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com <> ::Shrugs:: The so-called undefined terms are actually fairly well understood, it's just difficult to define them. Especially the point; you can say something like "The set of all points contained within a single dimension" for a line or "The set of all lines parallel to one another" for a plane. A point really can't be defined in any terms I can think of, but the concept is one that can be understood fairly easily. Religious ideas, on the other hand, such as God and Heaven, are generally difficult to define or understand in any other terms other than the vaguest, i.e. "The big guy who created us and brings us to the Good Place and/or the Bad Place" and "Where we go when we die, it's real happy and stuff." Likewise, it's very difficult to find any two people who have the same perception of who God is, whereas I have yet to meet anyone who disputes my concept of a geometric point. ||===================== || || --v^v-[Nature Leseul]-v^v-- || || The weird guy in the corner || || Dreamy Smurf || || Donatello! || || "Some are vicious, || || some are fools, || || and others blind || || to see in me, || || one of their kind." || || -Anatoly, Endgame (Chess)|| ||"Is this off-topic or what?"|| ||===================== || _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Feb 2 00:13:09 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA03852 for philofractal-list; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:12:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA03792 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:01:58 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-37ka874.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.32.228]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00648 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:06:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:06:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990202000244.14b7a7de@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: Re: [philofractal] On-going Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 09:36 PM 2/1/99 -0600, Nature Leseul wrote: >A point really can't be defined in any terms I can think >of, but the concept is one that can be understood fairly >easily. Religious ideas, on the other hand, such as God and >Heaven, are generally difficult to define or understand in >any other terms other than the vaguest, . . . I have often compared the difficulty in defining and describing a point, which has no attributes, with the difficulty in defining and describing the abstract concept of God as it appears in certain eastern religions. When reading Eastern philosophy, one often comes upon phrases such as "the Tao that can be described is not the true Tao". And the Parabrahman (the Absolute) of the Hindu religion is described as an infinity without attributes. Perhaps an infinity with no attributes and a point are two different manifestations of the same thing. FOTD in 90 minutes. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Feb 2 03:20:35 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA04566 for philofractal-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:13:37 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp0.mindspring.com (smtp0.mindspring.com [207.69.200.30]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04413 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 01:29:56 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-37ka9dn.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.37.183]) by smtp0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA19780 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:34:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:34:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990202023031.29df93c4@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 02-02-99, (I Wonder What This Is) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- February 02, 1999 Fractal visionaries: A sunny morning here at Fractal Place led to a cloudy afternoon and a rainy evening. The temperature of 41F 5C was perfect for hunting fractals. Inspired by the perfection, I hunted. Once again, the MandelbrotMix5 formula provided the route to fractal satisfaction. Today's image reveals another midget from yesterday's fractal, this time in one of the supernumerary valleys. The pattern around the midget is one of the more unusual ones I have yet come upon. I colored the scene with an intense blue-emerald palette, and named the picture "I Wonder What This Is". I gave it that name when, after 10 minutes of staring, nothing better came to mind. The image is not quite as chaotic as it first appears. A careful examination reveals that the features around the midget are indeed arranged in increasing powers of 2. The parameter file is reasonably fast, but for the convenience of those who cannot spare even a few minutes, the GIF file has been posted to the Usenet group: and posted to the FOTD web site at: A couple days ago, I gave my opinion of science, which basically is that, while science is not perfect, it's the best thing we've got going. Today, I'll begin to share my opinion of religion, which is not quite up to my opinion of science. The following paragraph is closely based on words written 100 years ago by Samuel Clemens. It vividly describes what in my opinion is the greatest weakness in Western religion -- our traditional but flawed image of God. God could make good children as easily as bad, yet he prefers to make bad ones. He could make every one of them happy, yet he never makes a single happy one. He makes them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cuts it short. He promises them eternal life in paradise, then cruelly hides the truth of his promise. He gives his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet requires his earthly children to earn it. He gives his angels painless lives, yet curses his earthly children with biting miseries of mind and body. He mouths justice and invented hell -- mouths mercy and invented hell -- mouths forgiveness and invented hell. He mouths morals to other people and has none himself. He frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all. He creates his children with weaknesses, then shuffles the respon- sibility for their acts upon themselves, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself. And finally, with divine indifference, he commands these poor, abused slaves to worship him. What does this paragraph describe, an all-good god or an insane tyrant? This is the image of God I was taught in the Catholic school I attended through grade 8. When I showed this paragraph to the nun who was teaching my 8th grade religion class and asked her to explain it, she told me that the ways of God are a mystery and ordered me to sit down and shut up. I sat down and shut up as ordered, but I did not stop thinking. Luckily, in our day, we are backing off from such a fearful and puzzling image of God, but the problem remains that our tradi- tional concept of an all-good and all-powerful but invisible magician in the sky has deep inconsistencies when we try to reconcile it with the horrific events in the world, such as the holocaust. I'll continue this thread of thought in tomorrow's FOTD. Until then, take care, and dream of the day when science and religion walk side by side. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA================================================ MandelbrotMix5 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+1, c=pixel: z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c^l, |z| < 100 } END FORMULA================================================== START PARAMETER FILE========================================= I_WonderWhatThisIs { ; 10min on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1961 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix5 center-mag=-0.15079124\ 190555470/-0.21853871365918690/1788.918/1/-54.999 params=-1/1.11/1/-1.11/0/-2 float=y maxiter=3000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=20 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000TJzTJz<14>0A7<10>vlL<7>4\ h1OVr<15>xXQwUPwSPwaPvfPvdPvbPudOubOu`OtgOtROthOq\ WTnXXlbaihegnicsg`reYqdVqb<4>FmV<2>6zQ<6>doz<6>Da\ z<3>mJz<3>Xfz<10>agzagzagzahzbhz<7>cjzcjzbiz<6>Xc\ z<5>Dfz<12>ADz<5>RMzTNzXOz<6>uVz<13>Bcz<4>QVz<3>Q\ 3z<13>YFz<3>m9z<15>zqz<10>UVz<2>Ylz<6>dDzOQz<5>Ycz } END PARAMETER FILE=========================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE============================ I_WonderWhatThisIs { ; 10min on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1961 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix5 center-mag=-0.15079124\ 190555470/-0.21853871365918690/1788.918/1/-54.999 params=-1/1.11/1/-1.11/0/-2 float=y maxiter=3000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=20 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000TJzTJz<14>0A7<10>vlL<7>4\ h1OVr<15>xXQwUPwSPwaPvfPvdPvbPudOubOu`OtgOtROthOq\ WTnXXlbaihegnicsg`reYqdVqb<4>FmV<2>6zQ<6>doz<6>Da\ z<3>mJz<3>Xfz<10>agzagzagzahzbhz<7>cjzcjzbiz<6>Xc\ z<5>Dfz<12>ADz<5>RMzTNzXOz<6>uVz<13>Bcz<4>QVz<3>Q\ 3z<13>YFz<3>m9z<15>zqz<10>UVz<2>Ylz<6>dDzOQz<5>Ycz } frm:MandelbrotMix5 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+1, c=pixel: z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c^l, |z| < 100 } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE============================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Feb 2 05:13:03 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA05113 for philofractal-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:12:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz ([203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA05023 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:02:28 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-08.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.138]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA15035 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:06:10 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990202230434.006dd444@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:04:34 +1300 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] On-going In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990202000244.14b7a7de@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 00:06 02/02/99 -0500, Jim Muth wrote: > >Perhaps an infinity with no attributes and a point are two >different manifestations of the same thing. > 0 * infinity = the Universe (Srinivasa Ramanujan) _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Feb 2 05:13:03 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id EAA05119 for philofractal-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:13:01 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz ([203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA05022 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:02:28 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-08.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.138]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA15032 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:06:08 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990202230131.006dd5a8@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:01:31 +1300 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] On-going In-Reply-To: <36B657F4.59B8AEC2@holly.colostate.edu> References: <3.0.3.32.19990201133128.00685e34@mail.cdsnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 18:42 01/02/99 -0700, Xylen wrote: > > >For example, in another post here, someone said that science doesn't >have a book with a chapter "Things you shall not doubt," and since >religion does, the two ideas are separate. I have a book that has such a >chapter. It is called "First twenty-eight propositions of Euclid" >Admittedly, these propositions can be proven, but they all rely on a few >articles of faith. What exactly is a line, point or plane? As I see it, >belief in science relies on 'unknowable' things just as much as religion >does. Science and religion are self similar concepts within the Great >Fractal of the Universe. > In Euclidean geometry (at least as it is practised in modern mathematics) "points" and "lines" are such are not given prior definitions. The geometry doesn't define what they are because they are irrelevant to the theory itself. The power of this approach is that the one theory (Euclidean geometry in this case) can then have many more applications than just diagrams scratched in the sand. A "point" could be a pair of real numbers (x,y) and a "line" could then be a triple (x,y,z) of real numbers. You could then use the axioms to define the concept of "intersection" between two such triples, and the resulting system would obey the following twenty-eight propositions (or rather, those that are correct - Euclid's logic wasn't watertight). It doesn't matter what points and lines are; if they obey the axioms, then they form a Euclidean geometry. If you are studying a mathematical system and come across some mathematical beasties which, if you could dub some of them "points" and some of them "lines" and worked out a way of defining what it meant for two "line" beasties to intersect and such, you could then bring the entire arsenal of Euclidean Geometry to bear on your system (beastiality theory?), without having to rederive it all yourself. Kinda like object-oriented programming, I suppose :-) Then of course you could start wondering if it would make sense to relieve some of the axioms of your Euclidean "bestiality" and see if generalisations could be drawn - Riemannian bestiality, Lobatchewskian bestiality, projective bestiality, finite bestialities... >Ray Montgomery wrote: > > >> "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars but in >> ourselves......" > >I find a lot to agree with in this post. It has seemed to me that a lot >of arguments between 'science' and 'religion' amount to nothing more >than a difference of opinions on the meanings of a few words. > The articles of faith in science are probably less a matter of things to believe about the universe and more a matter of the process by which science operates - if there is one thing that science idealises it's probably the Scientific Method (virtually always written with capitals) - and like most ideals it's one that suffers when it comes to actual application! >Xylen >If a "rose by any other name does not smell as sweet" is a fractal by >any other name still a fractal? > "Est est est est est (A rose is a rose is a rose)". Morgan L. Owens PS: Human discourse as a fractal? Consider how many subtopics blossom into entire topics of their own, only to have their own offshoots and little frills become major subjects when looked at more closely. Sound familiar? _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Feb 2 11:21:33 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA06514 for philofractal-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:12:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (root@eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.90]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA06284 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:13:26 -0600 Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA62564 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:17:48 -0700 Received: from holly.colostate.edu (res099037.HALLS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.99.37]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA224604 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:17:47 -0700 Message-ID: <36B7170E.7EC93573@holly.colostate.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 08:17:34 -0700 From: Xylen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "philofractal@icd.com" Subject: [philofractal] Dimensions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com The following message got lost in the system, so I am forwarding it to the list on behalf of Diosnel. To: Subject: Dimensions Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:06:36 -0400 >There's a mathematical reason why 3 dimensional extensions of complex >numbers don't work so well. Something to do with "rings" and "fields" and >other terms I don't quite understand. I tried to develop a 3d number >system this way: > > t = x*1 + y*i + z*j, > >where 1 is the standard real 1 (the real unit), i is the first imaginary >unit, and j is the second imaginary unit (this i is not necessarily the >same as the complex i). Then, addition is defined by adding corresponding >parts, like adding complex numbers. For multiplication, a matrix needs to >be filled out, for multiplying A * B, where A and B are any of the 3 units >(x, y, and z are real numbers). > > B > 1 i j > 1 a b c > A i d e f > j g h k > >For complex numbers, a=1, b=d=i, and e=-1. For my extension, I wanted it >to be a superset of the real numbers, so a=1. I also wanted >real*imaginary to be imaginary, so b=d=i and c=g=j. That left defining >the imaginary * imaginary products, e, f, h, and k. I also wanted the >magnitude of t1 * t2 to be the same as the magnitude of t1 * the magnitude >of t2, like in complex. This would make it easier to think about >analyzing this system with the Mandelbrot formula t = t*t + c. However, I >wasn't able to find any suitable choices for e, f, h, and k that let the >magnitude condition work out. > >I suspect that this is connected to the lack of 3d number systems in >general. The standard extensions are quaternions (4d) and octonions (8d). > This might be caused by the fact that a complex equation - i.e. z = f(z) - can not be plotted in the ordinary way, as in y = x. When you make a graph of a complex equation, you are "mapping" it. In the most general case, a complex equation is four dimensional. That applies to fractals as well. Regards, Diosnel _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Feb 2 16:13:27 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA08216 for philofractal-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:13:56 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA08037 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:35:53 -0600 Received: from default (vp233-249.worldonline.nl [195.241.233.249]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA10024 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:39:13 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990202203055.007d6a10@pop1.tip.nl> X-Sender: t356237@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 20:30:55 +0100 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jack Ruijs Subject: [philofractal] On-going In-Reply-To: <000d01be4e5d$377cbf80$cc0ad1ab@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 09:36 PM 2/1/99 -0600, Nature wrote: > ... Religious ideas, on >the other hand, such as God and Heaven, are generally difficult to define or >understand in any other terms other than the vaguest, i.e. "The big guy who >created us and brings us to the Good Place and/or the Bad Place" and "Where >we go when we die, it's real happy and stuff." Likewise, it's very difficult >to find any two people who have the same perception of who God is, whereas I >have yet to meet anyone who disputes my concept of a geometric point. That's just what a point is; undisputable! (:->) But just to tease the discussion; something like: "Every object in space has both mass- and wave-like properties and can be defined with a wavefunction which HAS to be interpreted by a group of people who even have a fancy name for this interpretation (=agreement or belief), but it is also known that mass is more or less the same as contracted space in the fourth dimension which can be constructed with an extra dimension with the term i=SQRT(-1) (which we KNOW as being imaginary) in it.", sounds in someway unvague? Greetings, Jack Ruijs _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Tue Feb 2 19:13:02 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA09164 for philofractal-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:12:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from dot.crosswinds.net ([204.50.152.131]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA08928 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:32:36 -0600 Received: from default (167-16-141.ipt.aol.com [152.167.16.141]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA08722 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:38:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nleseul@zurich.crosswinds.net) Message-ID: <002301be36a8$8d37c2c0$8d10a798@default> From: "Nature Leseul" To: Subject: Re: [philofractal] FOTD 02-02-99, (I Wonder What This Is) (c) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:35:03 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com <> ::Shrugs:: I've normally heard the Christian viewpoint that God wants to ascertain that we're wiling to go through plagues and death and holocausts and other such not-happy stuff for Him before he lets us in. This is the kind of thinking that turns me off to Christianity. :-P I've considered my own theory. In the earlier days of myth when mankind was basically in infancy and childhood, he needed a loving Father to protect him and to teach him good behavior. But man's been growing up and moving away from his Father's influence. We're in late teenage years now, and well on our way to becoming adults, so God doesn't have as much influence over our lives. And, unfortunately, it looks like mankind might have turned out as a juvenile delinquent. :-P "From a distance, there are no guns, No bombs, no diseases..." "God is watching us, God is watching us, From a distance." ||===================== || || --v^v-[Nature Leseul]-v^v-- || || The weird guy in the corner || || Dreamy Smurf || || Donatello! || || "Some are vicious, || || some are fools, || || and others blind || || to see in me, || || one of their kind." || || -Anatoly, Endgame (Chess)|| ||"Is this off-topic or what?"|| ||===================== || _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Feb 3 00:14:28 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA10586 for philofractal-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:12:58 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (root@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.64]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA10481 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:53:31 -0600 Received: from holly.colostate.edu (res099037.HALLS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.99.37]) by yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA75630 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:57:34 -0700 Message-ID: <36B7D72E.3E340CB0@holly.colostate.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 21:57:18 -0700 From: Xylen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philofractal@icd.com Subject: [philofractal] Re: (I Wonder What This Is) (c) References: <002301be36a8$8d37c2c0$8d10a798@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Nature Leseul wrote: > We're in late teenage years now, and well > on our way to becoming adults, so God doesn't have as much influence over > our lives. And, unfortunately, it looks like mankind might have turned out > as a juvenile delinquent. :-P But at least we were given a great 'sweet sixteen' gift in Fractals. :) Xylen -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- GO BRONCO'S--Winners of the 98 Super Bowl Winners of the 99 Super Bowl http://members.tripod.com/~Xylen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Feb 3 00:14:32 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA10592 for philofractal-list; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:13:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mail-01.cdsnet.net (mail-01.cdsnet.net [206.107.16.35]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA10405 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:39:05 -0600 Received: (qmail 13492 invoked from network); 3 Feb 1999 04:43:15 -0000 Received: from d01a86d0.dip.cdsnet.net (HELO default) (208.26.134.208) by mail.cdsnet.net with SMTP; 3 Feb 1999 04:43:15 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990202205415.007244f0@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: elmont@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 20:54:15 -0800 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Ray Montgomery Subject: [philofractal] Something forgotten. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Perhaps forgotten, (and perhaps conveniently - or perhaps never learned) that, according to true Christian belief is the fact that God gave man the greatest gift it was possible to give. God gave man the gift of "free will." "FREE WILL." Think about that. Who screwed up, God or man. Man makes of his and this life what he will and he will muck things up good and proper. Man and his religion(s), not God - man and his ever-lasting quest for superiority and territory and to have MORE that the next guy - are you listening,Bill? - not God is the source of the holocausts - that includes both religion and science - for BOTH are human-driven and BOTH responsible. I don't see that the one branch of beliefs is any more responsible, good and/or bad, than the other. I'm personally not functionable in either department - and I really believe that if I day-dreamed for success in either dept. I would probably favor the science dept.. Again "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars but in ourselves......" Think on't. Ray _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Feb 3 01:13:02 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA10866 for philofractal-list; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:14:21 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA10828 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:04:16 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-37ka8i7.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.34.71]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA06207 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:08:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:08:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990203010436.2997d22a@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 03-02-99, (Corralled Minibrot) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- February 03, 1999 Fractal visionaries: A foggy day in Fractal town had me gloomy, had me down. The temperature of 50F 10C gave no consolation, so I opened my critical.frm file to see what mischief I could get into. I ended up rewriting the MandelbrotMix5 formula and naming the new version MandelbrotMix4. (The old M-Mix4 was simply a proto- version 5. This new version 4 does not draw all the images the old version 5 draws, but with those it does draw, it calculates 33 percent faster than the old version. I rewrote the formula when I realized that version 5 could be speeded up, and that I had been using C^1 and C^(-1) almost exclusively. Substituting ident(C) and recip(C) and moving these terms to the initialization part of the formula changed a 1-hour fractal into a 39-minute fractal. It also allowed me to include a variable escape radius, which makes a big difference with the negative power images. So in consideration of these events, I hereby declare that in the future I shall optimize my formulas before posting them. And for today, I declare the fractal ready for posting. The picture reminds me of a midget in a corral, so I named it "Corralled Minibrot". It is a mixture of Z^3 and Z^(-2) with the reciprocal of C added. It's a rather disorganized picture, quite unlike anything one might find in the classic Mandelbrot set, at least in the often visited areas. But it's still worth a look. Since I do not consider it one of my better efforts, I'll probably get 50 letters of praise. It seems as though the fractals that please me the most please others the least, and vice-versa. But be that as it may, the image is a slow one, and I recommend picking it up from Usenet at: or from the FOTD web site at: A few years ago, at the height of the crop-circle flap, a circle in the shape of the Mandelbrot set appeared in an English grain field. Some cerealogists, (investigators of crop-circles), claimed that this proved the circles were produced by intelli- gent aliens from outer space. To me it proved that this particular circle, and most likely all such circles, were hoaxes. I came to this conclusion after trying to mentally calculate the chances that an alien race capable of interstellar travel would try to communicate by drawing the Mandelbrot set, or even if they would have a knowledge of the M-set. To begin, they would need the concept of imaginary and complex numbers, and the complex plane on which these numbers are plotted. I find it extremely unlikely that any intelligent race other than our own will have abstracted the universe into real and imaginary numbers in order to better understand it. Most likely, they will obtain their knowledge of the world as they experience it through channels entirely beyond our comprehension. In my eyes, one of the world's greatest mysteries is the fact that mathematics so accurately describes the world as we observe it. I wonder whether numbers naturally do mirror the world or if we perhaps unconsciously designed numbers to mirror the world. If the latter is the case, we might be the only race in the universe with our particular concept of numbers, and therefore the only race for whom the Mandelbrot set exists. But what conceptual wonders do those alien intelligences possess that we cannot even dream of? I guess we'll never know, but then, who knows . . . With that bit of speculation, I'll end today's FOTD. I'll return tomorrow with another fractal from the new formula and perhaps some philosophy about religion. Until then, take care, and if numbers didn't exist, we'd have to invent them. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA================================================ MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END FORMULA================================================== START PARAMETER FILE========================================= Corralled_Minibrot {; 3-1/3hrs on a 486-100mhz, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=t center-mag=+0.27923001424951640/-0.15879222552521260\ /1.026844e+008/1/154.999 params=0.05/3/-1.5/-2/0/0 float=y maxiter=15000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=575 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000GO6GN7<10>NYGKZHH_HEgICoI<12>PXCQWCRTB<15>\ OpIOqILsE<7>eqdhqgmtn<14>HF4<12>UdNVfOVgR<12>dm5<7>D\ 3Y<12>UOQWPQZRP<4>iZMtbOo_MgYLaWJXUISSGMPFGND<3>0F82\ PIkYorftsoxy`kfMh755<22>fn_<8>rGgsChu8j<6>qDZpEXpFX\ <9>kMajIb<2>iTchSd<2>gaefdffhfelg<11>_mm_mmZmmZmmYmm\ <21>NmmWmmWRmWQm } END PARAMETER FILE=========================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE============================ Corralled_Minibrot {; 3-1/3hrs on a 486-100mhz, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=t center-mag=+0.27923001424951640/-0.15879222552521260\ /1.026844e+008/1/154.999 params=0.05/3/-1.5/-2/0/0 float=y maxiter=15000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=575 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=000GO6GN7<10>NYGKZHH_HEgICoI<12>PXCQWCRTB<15>\ OpIOqILsE<7>eqdhqgmtn<14>HF4<12>UdNVfOVgR<12>dm5<7>D\ 3Y<12>UOQWPQZRP<4>iZMtbOo_MgYLaWJXUISSGMPFGND<3>0F82\ PIkYorftsoxy`kfMh755<22>fn_<8>rGgsChu8j<6>qDZpEXpFX\ <9>kMajIb<2>iTchSd<2>gaefdffhfelg<11>_mm_mmZmmZmmYmm\ <21>NmmWmmWRmWQm } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE============================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Feb 3 16:12:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA14812 for philofractal-list; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:13:41 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14596; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:25:38 -0600 From: Lowin@aol.com Received: from Lowin@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id GUCIa27784; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:24:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:24:12 EST To: jamth@mindspring.com, owner-philofractal@icd.com, philofractal@icd.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [philofractal] Fractals and God Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Someone wrote: As I see it, >belief in science relies on 'unknowable' things just as much as religion >does. Science and religion are self similar concepts within the Great >Fractal of the Universe. I agree. Suppose you give up the bearded great white God in the sky and define God as the life force. Then fractals are the picture of it given to us through the magic speed of the computer. Fractals show us life. "We, all peoples, all life, all creation, are inseparably bonded together at some mysterious level and yet at another level, we stand uniquely and creatively alone and different." Lois _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Feb 3 17:14:02 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA15086 for philofractal-list; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:12:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mail.enterprise.net (root@mail.enterprise.net [194.72.192.18]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14897 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:33:47 -0600 Received: from max09-037.enterprise.net (max09-037.enterprise.net [194.72.199.37]) by mail.enterprise.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00792 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:37:39 GMT From: delete-this.plptrigon@enterprise.net (Phil Pickard) To: philofractal@icd.com Subject: [philofractal] Free Will Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:37:01 GMT Message-ID: <36b8bff1.25462584@mail.enterprise.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by rock.icd.com id PAA14899 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com God gave us free will ? Are we sure ? Maybe we are biological machines and we just THINK we have free will ! Regards, Phil. ************************ plptrigon@enterprise.net //Note the anti-spam in header. ************************ _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Feb 3 17:14:03 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA15090 for philofractal-list; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:12:59 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from dot.crosswinds.net ([204.50.152.131]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14926 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:40:21 -0600 Received: from default (166-13-158.ipt.aol.com [152.166.13.158]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA26543 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:46:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nleseul@zurich.crosswinds.net) Message-ID: <000d01be3761$f71bc420$9e0da698@default> From: "Nature Leseul" To: Subject: Re: [philofractal] Re: (I Wonder What This Is) (c) Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:42:18 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com <<> We're in late teenage years now, and well > on our way to becoming adults, so God doesn't have as much influence over > our lives. And, unfortunately, it looks like mankind might have turned out > as a juvenile delinquent. :-P But at least we were given a great 'sweet sixteen' gift in Fractals. :)>> ::Laughs:: Well, as cool as fractals are, I'd really have prefered the traditional gift of a shiny new car (i.e., interstellar flight capability), but I guess our Daddy can't exactly trust us with that kind of responsibility yet. Is this a tortured metaphor or what? :-P ||===================== || || --v^v-[Nature Leseul]-v^v-- || || The weird guy in the corner || || Dreamy Smurf || || Donatello! || || "Some are vicious, || || some are fools, || || and others blind || || to see in me, || || one of their kind." || || -Anatoly, Endgame (Chess)|| ||"Is this off-topic or what?"|| ||===================== || _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Wed Feb 3 18:12:56 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA15401 for philofractal-list; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:12:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mail-01.cdsnet.net (mail-01.cdsnet.net [206.107.16.35]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA15128 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 16:18:43 -0600 Received: (qmail 20177 invoked from network); 3 Feb 1999 22:22:36 -0000 Received: from d01a86aa.dip.cdsnet.net (HELO default) (208.26.134.170) by mail.cdsnet.net with SMTP; 3 Feb 1999 22:22:36 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990203143336.00689ac4@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: elmont@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:33:36 -0800 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Ray Montgomery Subject: [philofractal] Re: "...the bearded great white God..." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Lois, 99% right, by my calculator. But I find that fractals "...are the picture of it (...life force...)" represent the same to me but I can so easily keep my 'guy with the white beard...in the sky' AND examine the pictures of it too. One of the immediate things that sprang unbidden to mind, on seeing my first picture of a fractal in the book "Chaos", was that I was looking at an 'invitation'-the image kept haunting me until I was able to track it down. (Or them, it and/or them being fractals.) Agreed 100% by my calculator - ..."Fractals show us life."... I do not recognize, even remotely, the quote at the bottom of your message. Would you be good enough to elaborate on it? It is quite a strong and poetic (and pretty accurate) statement. Regards Ray _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Thu Feb 4 01:12:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA17350 for philofractal-list; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:13:11 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com (smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA17237 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 23:54:59 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-37ka98k.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.37.20]) by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA30144 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:58:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:58:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990204005420.29a76f22@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 04-02-99, (Fractal Dracula) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- Frbruary 04, 1999 Fractal visionaries: Today was as gorgeous as a day can possibly be in this part of the world at this time of year. The fog blew away early this morning, leaving a brilliant sapphire sky and a bright sun, which heated the air to 52F 11C. On days like this I take a walk to enjoy the outside world, then I return to my computer to enjoy the fractal world. Today was no exception. Back at my computer, I brought up my new MandelbrotMix4 formula and began entering parameters at random. When I mixed portions of Z^5 and Z^(-0.05), I found it makes an interesting fractal when added to 1/C. (When added to C, this combination draws only a blank screen.) After a few minutes browsing the parent fractal, I uncovered today's rather sinister looking scene. At first, I could not recognize the reason for the sinister feeling in the picture. Then I saw it. The dark tortured shapes forming a rough square around the midget resemble the wings of bats -- wings beating silently -- ominous wings -- wings of vampire bats, those blood sucking demons of the night. All right, so I got a little carried away, but the picture has just enough of a horror film appearance for me to feel justified in labeling it "Fractal Dracula". The GIF file has been posted to: where all who would rather not calculate the parameter file may pick it up. The image has also been posted to the FOTD web site at: I have noticed the topic of freedom of the human will trying to come to life on the Philofractal list recently. This is one of the most puzzling and controversial topics in all of Philosophy. It is also one of my favorite things to ponder when life grows dull, (which it rarely does). Do human beings have the free will to choose between good and evil. Only two answers are possible: yes and no. And either answer leads to contradictions and logical paradoxes. The intuitive answer is 'of course we have free will; we can do whatever we wish whenever we wish'. This viewpoint seems obvious until we realize that the world operates by cause and effect. On the macroscopic level, nothing happens without a cause. Any decision that we make involves causes which determine our behavior. If we truly have free will to act without previous cause, then the firmly established principle of causality is violated. The theological paradox is even more puzzling. Theology tells us that God knows everything, including past and future. Therefore God knows beforehand every action we will take in our lives, and our future is predetermined by what God knows. Since God knows the future, the entire history of the world is like a pre-recorded film, recorded in God's mind and being played back moment by moment. We do not yet know the future, but the future is already out there, fixed and waiting to pass through the projector. And we are but helpless puppets, doomed to carry out the things God already knows we shall do. Some recent interpretations of quantum theory would appear to support such a super-determinism, as unpleasant as this fact is for us to accept. Of course, if we have no freedom of will, what then of moral effort, what of guilt or innocence, reward or punishment? Why would God bother to create those souls he knows will end up in hell? Clearly something is wrong. I have no answer to these puzzles. My best reply would be that paradoxes such as this usually indicate a wrong understanding of the problem. Sometimes I think of the question of free will as it relates to the world of fractals. Every possible fractal already exists out there somewhere in the ether. We determine which pre-existing fractal will appear on our screens by the parameters we enter into the fractal program. In a like manner, we might decide by our moment-to-moment decisions which fixed future we will experience. I suppose this is closest to the multiple worlds theory of reality, but even this raises paradoxes. And now I'm getting mentally congested with all this speculation. Perhaps I'll have more thoughts on this topic next time. And perhaps I'll merely relax with a pleasant fractal. To find out which, be here tomorrow, same time same place. Until then, take care, and regardless of the free will question, always do what you think is right. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START FORMULA================================================ MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END FORMULA================================================== START PARAMETER FILE========================================= Fractal_Dracula { ; 16min on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1 center-mag=-0.14472688844510560/+0.01733820660198381\ /8.377298e+007/1/-102.5 params=0.06/5/6/-0.05/0/0 float=y maxiter=2100 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=40 symmetry=xaxis periodicity=10 colors=000sOenTaiXYHOC<2>_YRH6D<2>_URLzWYfv<2>caascF\ laNooBjgLoO2yHpoReCw7<2>ZePEkWSeVwUAqXHkZO2T1MXGooIj\ gP1CtPWCYZM2C4GLDTTMBNKNVeXY_rjGmfLicQ4ytNlgnIA<2>gX\ QQ1AWDH`POPTV<2>aZVSm9vkuWBy<3>wYodVVNTA<2>pMaBkXmQ_\ jUYgYWSYtXZka_bbdi<2>eaYK`gV``2hdMd_RQpZWeWuJ2QQ<2>W\ ZUGPoRCaZPYU`HY`Ma`R5jxa4e<2>dTX6IwrPs<2>hY`lnXhgWnH\ w81txUGiDLhP1fVG`TAEBn<2>ZV_7juZVCaXJcZPLNWWUVnx`ilY\ 5Ja<2>XXWSA7XJFaSNRy6WpF`hNnIekPahVY8jmcS6PxwVpm`hck\ XViZVg_VVkM`eRwh`<2>ibWiHBgOIfVPshIneNibRSi5AUR<2>Y_\ UAyW<2>YfV``Rb`Td`UnfxNLMURP_WS7C_JLYVTWiKngQgfW`C2`\ RKYLnG<2>`cS2xH<2>WfS5VCOYMSb_<2>b`WtCclPZl2Eftcem`e\ fY1QpFUhTYaMYvxr5<2>idP8Un<2>Y__MX5WZIlPvORu<2>aZ`58\ RIITUSUAz8<2>YfQSk6XgFacNN5`ZebyiFEv0OnBXgLAU9LXHWZO\ KaC<2>``RML_<2>`XW } END PARAMETER FILE=========================================== START 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE============================ Fractal_Dracula { ; 16min on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=formula formulafile=critical.frm formulaname=MandelbrotMix4 function=recip passes=1 center-mag=-0.14472688844510560/+0.01733820660198381\ /8.377298e+007/1/-102.5 params=0.06/5/6/-0.05/0/0 float=y maxiter=2100 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=40 symmetry=xaxis periodicity=10 colors=000sOenTaiXYHOC<2>_YRH6D<2>_URLzWYfv<2>caascF\ laNooBjgLoO2yHpoReCw7<2>ZePEkWSeVwUAqXHkZO2T1MXGooIj\ gP1CtPWCYZM2C4GLDTTMBNKNVeXY_rjGmfLicQ4ytNlgnIA<2>gX\ QQ1AWDH`POPTV<2>aZVSm9vkuWBy<3>wYodVVNTA<2>pMaBkXmQ_\ jUYgYWSYtXZka_bbdi<2>eaYK`gV``2hdMd_RQpZWeWuJ2QQ<2>W\ ZUGPoRCaZPYU`HY`Ma`R5jxa4e<2>dTX6IwrPs<2>hY`lnXhgWnH\ w81txUGiDLhP1fVG`TAEBn<2>ZV_7juZVCaXJcZPLNWWUVnx`ilY\ 5Ja<2>XXWSA7XJFaSNRy6WpF`hNnIekPahVY8jmcS6PxwVpm`hck\ XViZVg_VVkM`eRwh`<2>ibWiHBgOIfVPshIneNibRSi5AUR<2>Y_\ UAyW<2>YfV``Rb`Td`UnfxNLMURP_WS7C_JLYVTWiKngQgfW`C2`\ RKYLnG<2>`cS2xH<2>WfS5VCOYMSb_<2>b`WtCclPZl2Eftcem`e\ fY1QpFUhTYaMYvxr5<2>idP8Un<2>Y__MX5WZIlPvORu<2>aZ`58\ RIITUSUAz8<2>YfQSk6XgFacNN5`ZebyiFEv0OnBXgLAU9LXHWZO\ KaC<2>``RML_<2>`XW } frm:MandelbrotMix4 {; Jim Muth a=real(p1), b=imag(p1), d=real(p2), f=imag(p2), g=1/f, h=1/d, j=1/(f-b), z=(-a*b*g*h)^j, k=real(p3)+1, l=imag(p3)+100, c=fn1(pixel): z=k*((a*(z^b))+(d*(z^f)))+c, |z| < l } END 19.6 PARAMETER-FORMULA FILE============================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Thu Feb 4 22:12:59 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA22988 for philofractal-list; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:13:09 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (root@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.64]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA22881 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:50:20 -0600 Received: from holly.colostate.edu (res099037.HALLS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.99.37]) by yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23422 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 19:53:43 -0700 Message-ID: <36BA5D35.F6E107CF@holly.colostate.edu> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:53:41 -0700 From: Xylen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "philofractal@icd.com" Subject: [philofractal] Free will? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Last night Jim posted some points concerning mankind and freewill (or lack thereof). It seems to me that man can make any choice he wants, but being not-quite-perfect, man doesn't know what all the choices are. If we knew what every choice was, and the consequences, then we would be on the same level as the creator. Perhaps since man is evolving and learning, fractals are a teaching aide that will enable us to understand more of the possibilities of our choices. Every time we create a fractal, we are making choices. Some images we like and many we don't. The ease that we create and destroy an image is a lesson, and I'm afraid we are not understanding the true nature of creation yet. Sorry for the rambling and disjointed thoughts. My mail server was down for two days, and tonight I lost my sound card. I'm afraid I'm not thinking clearly. Anybody want to trade your Mac for my PC? ;) Xylen -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Lottery---a tax on the mathematically illiterate http://members.tripod.com/~Xylen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Feb 5 00:13:09 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA23579 for philofractal-list; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:12:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from bo.nznet.gen.nz (ns1.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.34]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA23462 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:51:04 -0600 Received: from packrat.nznet.gen.nz (ms2-09.nznet.gen.nz [203.167.232.139]) by bo.nznet.gen.nz (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07011 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:53:51 +1300 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990205175402.006d5ea8@mail.nznet.gen.nz> X-Sender: packrat@mail.nznet.gen.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:54:02 +1300 To: philofractal@icd.com From: "Morgan L. Owens" Subject: Re: [philofractal] Free will? In-Reply-To: <36BA5D35.F6E107CF@holly.colostate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 19:53 04/02/99 -0700, you wrote: >... If we knew what every choice was, and the consequences... > This is the assumption behind the "rational player" of much of traditional economic theory. > >...then we would be on the same level as the creator. > Which just goes to show how risky it is to run entire national economies on the grounds of traditional economic theory! Morgan L. Owens _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Feb 5 01:13:01 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA23870 for philofractal-list; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:12:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from netpointer.com (root@[207.34.141.3]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA23744 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:41:43 -0600 Received: from mail.netpointer.com (remote12.netpointer.com [207.34.141.140]) by netpointer.com (8.7.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA15946 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:45:13 -0800 Posted-Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:45:13 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:46:26 -0800 From: John Wilson X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.19) UNREG X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <18907.990204@netpointer.com> To: philofractal@icd.com Subject: [philofractal] More "Philo" than "Fractal" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com Discussion in this group appears to be becoming polarized into opposing schools of thought, perhaps there's room for compromise. Maybe "free will" and predestination are not opposing and incompatible hypotheses. Paradox? Well, maybe, but how's this for a rough cut at a resolution? CAUTION; This is long-winded! :-) Once upon a time, a universe, (or many universes, but that's another story), was/were born as a result of an event which is presently known as "the Big Bang"...in nothingness a space-time "happened". In the fullness of time we humans became part of a universe which we recognize as expanding; at least we recognize *space* to be in an expansive mode. I've never come across a discussion in which an expansion of *time* was proposed. Even Hawking, as far as my understanding goes, considers only an expanding space, all based on Hubble's observations of the apparent spectral red-shift of distant stars. Just how are these "red-shifts" measured? What are the measurement units but frequencies; i.e. occurrences per unit *time* ???? Whoa! What if time was different back there, and back "when"? What do our frequency shifts mean now? Of course time alters! At the singularity, no space-time existed, but now, some 15 billion years later,(?), a space-time exists. Space-time has accelerated, from zero to some finite manifestation. Surely this means that space-time is/was propagating? If this is true, then how fast is that propagation? What are the units for the speed of time passage? (Hence the (?) after "15 billion years". Time within time within time? Sounds like a fractal universe!) Present-day cosmology accepts the possibility of bubbles, voids, bumps and wrinkles in time, but only in the early universe. (This was needed to explain the unevenness of the matter distribution in observable space, the clumping of galaxies and nebulae). Of course, if space and time are components of a "space-time", similar to the electrical and magnetic components of an electromagnetic wave, then the *phase* velocity of propagation can be much greater than the speed of light. Then, a phase disturbance between space and time could manifest itself as either an expanding, (or contracting), space, OR as an expanding (or contracting) time. We prefer to accept expanding space, as the mind boggles at the concept of time expanding from our "NOW", at a rate of years-per-whatever? Note that no matter what our location in space, the components of our universe are always (apparently) moving away from our point of observation. I would expect the same of time...at least until space-time should start to contract...and now for the REALLY weird thinking! Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe that the human race is gradually improving itself, as a statistical whole. True, it may be a case of two steps forward and one back, and the individual components show a nicely random distribution, but Man is gradually becoming a better being. It's my profound belief that this is our destiny; each to try to advance mankind just a little during his/her lifetime. Not necessarily on a heroic scale, but at least to go FORWARD, and then die as an individual. No medals, no awards, no brass bands. However, over the millennia, perhaps Man will progress towards knowing all, seeing all, and loving all, and the ultimate Man will be what we now call...God. God made in Man's image? The Adam and Eve story is backwards? (To digress a little. In my more pessimistic moments, I sometimes wonder if the whole purpose of mankind was fulfilled in, say, 1947, when man caused a mutation in a microbe with, say, DDT. This microbe to eventually become the progenitor of the REAL human race)! To get back to the end of time. If the expansion of space-time should come to a halt, due to the cumulative gravitational effect of "dark matter", or any other cause: Will time cease to exist? Or rather, will time cease to move away from wherever Ultimate Man is? If time ceases to "flow", the divisions of time that we now call past, present and future would have no meaning. Hmmmmm. Now where have I heard of an Ultimate Being, Eternity and all Mankind rising from the grave? Sounds familiar! Now with all THAT out of my system, it's back to the world and unreality of Fractals! Please note that early in this diatribe came the significant introduction; "Once upon a time..." John W. _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Feb 5 03:12:56 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA24330 for philofractal-list; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:12:57 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA24187 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:36:09 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-37ka9g2.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.38.2]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA23956 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:39:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:39:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990205023543.2a0782b6@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] Re: More "Philo" than "Fractal" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 09:46 PM 2/4/99 -0800, John Wilson wrote: >Discussion in this group appears to be becoming polarized into >opposing schools of thought, . . . Yes, the opposing schools of thought are appearing. That's how it's supposed to be in a group where the topic is philosophy, with some connection to fractals. And so far we've been able to disagree without becoming intolerant of others' opinions. Actually, the list has gone far better than I had dared hope. The rest of John's letter demands a reply, but I'm totally out of steam for this evening, after a very busy day. Look for a longer reply to this most provocative letter tomorrow. If the list retains its good behavior, I might begin posting a few more of my "philo-fiction" stories, such as "Keeper of the Gazebo" which I posted a year or so ago, and which touches on the topic of the end of time and space. We'll see how it goes. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Feb 5 03:16:06 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA24334 for philofractal-list; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:13:00 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA24108 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:13:24 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-37ka9g2.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.38.2]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA23588 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:16:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:16:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990205021256.2a07cbcc@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] FOTD 05-02-99, (Metaphysical Midget) (c) Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com FOTD -- February 05, 1999 Fractal visionaries: Today was a lively one here at Fractal HQ. It started out grey and drizzly, then turned sunny and warm by noon. But a sudden gusty thunder-shower with hail ended the fun at 4:00pm, leading to a blustery, chilly evening. The temperature of 55F 13C was perfect for hunting fractals. But before commenting on the fractal, I most share my amusement at the goings on over on the Fractint list, where someone actually dared to use a naughty word. It was not the h-word nor the s-word, nor even the d-word. It was the f-word, and the resulting outrage and demands for expulsion are unprecedented. Of course, I was shocked when I saw the offensive word -- so shocked that I forgot about it within a minute. Actually, the angry letter with the nasty word was nothing compared to the letter I posted to the Mindspring newsgroup, mindspring.help, last Friday when I could not get my e-mail for over 24 hours. My letter was a masterwork of verbal karate, attacking the Mindspring technical help people mercilessly. You can imagine my humiliation when I discovered that the problem had been on my end, forcing me to make a public apology. But that's how it goes when one gets angry and acts in haste. I am not at all angry at today's fractal, which I have named "Metaphysical Midget". It is a picture of a tiny midget in a lost arm of a forgotten midget just beyond the prominent midget on the East branch of the North filament. Since the picture goes well into the arbitrary precision range, the parameter file is a slow one. Downloading is recommended. I named the picture as I did because it reminds me of a vision in the sky -- a baby Mandelbrot shape breaking through stormy clouds. The baby-brot has been posted to: and to: I'm a bit philosophized out today, still trying to decide if I have the free will to search for any fractal I choose. But tomorrow will be here in only 24 hours, and I'll return at that time with a new fractal from my new formula and a 86 percent chance of more philosophy. Until then, take care, and speak in haste only if you plan to regret at leisure. Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com START PARAMETER FILE========================================= MetaphysicalMidget { ; 2-1/3 hrs on a 486-100, 640x480 reset=1960 type=mandel passes=1 center-mag=-0.03780\ 177335366359208973/0.9855310268891124051449/1.37394\ 6e+018/1/-27.437/-0.043 params=0/0 float=y maxiter=3000 bailout=25 inside=0 logmap=557 symmetry=none periodicity=10 colors=00090G90GA0IB0K<8>K0KL0KL0KL0KzzcHMiCNn6Ot\ <20>Tkp<15>BiR<9>iQJ<3>zbG<3>oIM<6>dGWbGXb7c<2>_W\ M<20>FNeFNeGIfHChI7iJ2j<15>4EP<3>HKWKLYNM`<2>WQhZ\ RkaSodUqgVtjWymXzfTzYSv<3>IPYEOPANJ6NE<13>2QD<12>\ eEc<6>CYD<15>9yT<9>eTj<4>uYsxZty_vz`wzaxzbz<8>zlz\ zmzzmz<20>zmz } END PARAMETER FILE=========================================== _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Feb 5 14:13:21 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA27216 for philofractal-list; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:13:08 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA27190 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:12:14 -0600 Received: from LOCALNAME (user-38lcivs.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.75.252]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18210 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:15:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:15:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19990205141132.29ef2626@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: jamth@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jim Muth Subject: [philofractal] Re: More "Philo" than "Fractal" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 09:46 PM 2/4/99 -0800, John Wilson wrote: >Discussion in this group appears to be becoming polarized into >opposing schools of thought, perhaps there's room for compromise. There's always polarization when the topic under discussion consists of such philosophical and non-intuitive concepts. >Maybe "free will" and predestination are not opposing and >incompatible hypotheses. Perhaps 'free will' and 'predestination' are merely two different ways of seeing the same thing -- like the Mandelbrot sets and Julia sets. >Paradox? Well, maybe, but how's this for a rough cut at a >resolution? CAUTION; This is long-winded! :-) When paradoxes arise, it often indicates a faulty comprehension of the problem, due largely to the limitations of our common sense world view. For example, we can easily comprehend how the surface of the earth can be boundless yet limited in area. In a vague sort of way, we can add a dimension and extend this idea to comprehend how space can be boundless yet limited in volume. But when we try to imagine a first moment of time, our commom sense world-view overwhelms us, and we wrongly ask, "what happened one hour before the beginning of time?" We can not grasp that asking such a question is exactly like asking what is north of the north pole. >Once upon a time, a universe, (or many universes, but that's >another story), was/were born as a result of an event which is >presently known as "the Big Bang"...in nothingness a space-time >"happened". Curiously, we cannot imagine a nothingness. When we try to visualize a vacuum, we cannot take away the empty three- dimensional space. Nor can we imagine spacetime in its four- dimensional unity. Our power of visualization seems to be stuck in three spatial dimensions. This leads me to wonder whether the description 'three-dimensional' better describes an actually existing objective reality or the state of the human awareness. >In the fullness of time we humans became part of a universe which >we recognize as expanding; at least we recognize *space* to be in >an expansive mode. I've never come across a discussion in which >an expansion of *time* was proposed. If time were expanding, which it well might be, how would we recognize it and measure the expansion? Our psychological processes as well as our measuring devices would be expanding along with time. >Even Hawking, as far as my understanding goes, considers only an >expanding space, all based on Hubble's observations of the >apparent spectral red-shift of distant stars. Just how are these >"red-shifts" measured? What are the measurement units but >frequencies; i.e. occurrences per unit *time* ???? Whoa! What >if time was different back there, and back "when"? What do our >frequency shifts mean now? When I consider those far away and long ago galaxies, I think of the photons' point of view and the implications of relativity. For an object moving at the velocity of light, as all photons do, time does not exist. This is because at the velocity of light, space contracts to zero. From the point of view of the photons that have travelled from those distant galaxies, the photons themselves do not exist. They have been emitted and absorbed at the same instant, because they have traveled no distance. >Of course time alters! At the singularity, no space-time >existed, but now, some 15 billion years later,(?), a space-time >exists. Space-time has accelerated, from zero to some finite >manifestation. Surely this means that space-time is/was >propagating? If this is true, then how fast is that propagation? >What are the units for the speed of time passage? (Hence the >(?) after "15 billion years". Time within time within time? >Sounds like a fractal universe!) No one doubts that the universe has fractal characteristics on smaller scales; the controversy arises when it is claimed that the entire universe itself is a fractal. My opinion is that the whole must share the nature of its parts. But this still leaves open the question of who or what is doing the calculation that brings about the physical manifestation. >Of course, if space and time are components of a "space-time", >similar to the electrical and magnetic components of an >electromagnetic wave, then the *phase* velocity of propagation >can be much greater than the speed of light. At the quantum level, faster-than-light propagation of informa- tion, (non-locality), is a demonstrated fact. >Then, a phase disturbance between space and time could manifest >itself as either an expanding, (or contracting), space, OR as an >expanding (or contracting) time. We prefer to accept expanding >space, as the mind boggles at the concept of time expanding from >our "NOW", at a rate of years-per-whatever? I feel that whatever is true of space must also be true of time. Space and time are really only two aspects of the same thing, and appear different only because we percieve them in different ways. This different perception is the reason time and space must be handled differently mathematically. >Note that no matter what our location in space, the components of >our universe are always (apparently) moving away from our point >of observation. I would expect the same of time...at least until >space-time should start to contract. I agree >...and now for the REALLY weird thinking! Actually, it's not that weird. >Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe that the human race is >gradually improving itself, as a statistical whole. True, it >may be a case of two steps forward and one back,... I'd say 1,000,000 steps forward and 999,999 steps backward is more appropriate. The system of improvement is horribly inefficient. We come to earth to supposedly learn the lesson of how to live life, but by the time we learn our lesson, our lives are over and it is too late. All we can do is pass on to our children the things we have learned. The children of course will not listen and will repeat our mistakes. >... and the individual components show a nicely random >distribution, but Man is gradually becoming a better being. It's >my profound belief that this is our destiny; each to try to >advance mankind just a little during his/her lifetime. Not >necessarily on a heroic scale, but at least to go FORWARD, and >then die as an individual. No medals, no awards, no brass >bands. However, over the millennia, perhaps Man will progress >towards knowing all, seeing all, and loving all, and the ultimate >Man will be what we now call...God. God made in Man's image? >The Adam and Eve story is backwards? This idea is basically a restating of the traditional mystical, occult philosophy that the human race is a fallen spark of God struggling to reclaim its godhood. >(To digress a little. In my more pessimistic moments, I >sometimes wonder if the whole purpose of mankind was fulfilled >in, say, 1947, when man caused a mutation in a microbe with, say, >DDT. This microbe to eventually become the progenitor of the >REAL human race)! This is a good idea for a science-fiction story. As for its truth, who can say. I suspect that our present physical existence is a result of a mutation caused by who-knows-what a million or so years ago. >To get back to the end of time. If the expansion of space-time >should come to a halt, due to the cumulative gravitational effect >of "dark matter", or any other cause: Will time cease to exist? Perhaps. But if the universe is closed, and eventually begins to contract, would time start running in reverse? And even more puzzling, if time stopped running at the point of maximum expansion, would the universe be stuck forever at that point? If so, no contraction would ever begin. >Or rather, will time cease to move away from wherever Ultimate >Man is? If time ceases to "flow", the divisions of time that we >now call past, present and future would have no meaning. >Hmmmmm. Now where have I heard of an Ultimate Being, Eternity >and all Mankind rising from the grave? Sounds familiar! There is a common misconception that eternity means time without end. But from what I have been able to determine, time is a kind of illusion, and eternity is best described as existence outside of time. And if eternity is a state beyond time, what then is the real meaning of terms such as 'before birth' or 'after death'? >Now with all THAT out of my system, it's back to the world and >unreality of Fractals! Please note that early in this diatribe >came the significant introduction; "Once upon a time..." One good diatribe deserves another. :-) Jim Muth jamth@mindspring.com _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Feb 5 16:13:19 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA27843 for philofractal-list; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:13:16 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA27578 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:30:53 -0600 Received: from cr91540-a ([24.112.131.82]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with SMTP id <19990205203404.ZISM19263.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@cr91540-a> for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:34:04 -0800 From: "David Bewley" To: Subject: RE: [philofractal] Re: More "Philo" than "Fractal" Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:34:45 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be5146$f7b5cd00$52837018@cr91540-a.slnt1.on.wave.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990205023543.2a0782b6@pop.mindspring.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com > Jim Muth on Friday, 5 Feb, 99 2:40 AM : > > At 09:46 PM 2/4/99 -0800, John Wilson wrote: > > >Discussion in this group appears to be becoming polarized into > >opposing schools of thought, . . . > > > > Yes, the opposing schools of thought are appearing. That's how > it's supposed to be in a group where the topic is philosophy, > with some connection to fractals. And so far we've been able > to disagree without becoming intolerant of others' opinions. My disagreement is with the perceived necessity for "opposing schools" and "polarised positions". CAUTION: I graduated in electrical engineering 40 years ago (back when transistors came rolled in a paper with hand drawn characteristic curves!) and much later (responding to a "call" from God?) studied theology and became an Anglican priest. While I hold a masters in both engineering and theology, I am really only a 'mechanic' or practitioner of science and theology. Now that I'm disabled and have limited mobility, I'm a newbie dabbler in fractals and an avid reader of this new list. [Mea culpa: I confess that I do read science, including Steven Hawkings, for recreation.] I personally do not find that the practice of science and a belief in God to be incompatible. Yesterday Jim Muth raised one of these supposed incompatibilities by opening with: >Do human beings have the free will to choose between good and >evil. Only two answers are possible: yes and no. And either >answer leads to contradictions and logical paradoxes. I believe that we do have free will and that God being omniscient does already know the consequences of each of our choices, but that does not make our existence "predestined" - simply "known"! Being a reader of speculative fiction ("what if Hitler died in a car crash in 1938") I can accept (but neither prove nor disprove) that there may well be multiple 'parallel universes' acting out each of our free choices. If you reflect back to the high school demonstration of the "normal distribution curve", each marble has a 50/50 probability of falling right or left off each pin - it takes no great 'leap of faith' to believe that an omniscient God knows ahead of time what each marble will do at each pin and where it will end up. Earlier this week Ray Montgomergy said: >Most differences between those who 'favor' science and those who >'favor' religion and based less on reason than on personal >preferences - or conditioning - built up over a lifetime. The >prefernces or 'leanings' meet with opposition and man has a >disposition to take stronger and stronger stances when meeting >oppositon - and what happens is the 'shades of grey' >fall through the gaps and 'resolves' become stronger and stronger till >finally we face ever-increasing and ever-more-formidable differences >between the two 'outlooks.' (Notice, please, that I put many words >in semi-quotes so that the ever-present semantic problem will, >hopefully, be at least diminished.) This polarisation can happen in both individuals and this list, but it is not "preordained" - it need not happen as we each have free will! Each of us has the ability to hold an open, seeking mind - you have to work at it though, and often you have to *reserve judgement* because of the many irrational "contradictions and logical paradoxes". Speaking on behalf of the 'religious', not all people with a strong belief/faith in (a) God are "fundamentalists" with closed minds. This type of generalisation or labelling may be convenient but it is 'sloppy' thinking (NOT that Ray is doing it here or in his earlier posts) and disregards the real facts. There are many outstanding examples, but to just note one (from my small, ancient, desktop encyclopaedia): "MENDEL, Gregor Johann - 1822-84 Austrian scientist and Roman catholic priest . . ." (it goes on to talk of Mendel's gift to us of the scientific study of genetics, and "Mendel's Law", etc.). I'll now crawl back into my 'lurking mode' but I did want to caution about the current tendency in society to make sweeping generalisations about religion or religious people based on a few (or even many from TV) people or statements. DAVID David Bewley bewley@home.com _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Feb 5 17:13:08 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA28135 for philofractal-list; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:13:17 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from dot.crosswinds.net ([204.50.152.131]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA28084 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:05:38 -0600 Received: from default (172-8-129.ipt.aol.com [152.172.8.129]) by dot.crosswinds.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA18442 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:10:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nleseul@zurich.crosswinds.net) Message-ID: <002101be38f7$bfab3a60$8108ac98@default> From: "Nature Leseul" To: Subject: Re: [philofractal] Re: More "Philo" than "Fractal" Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:07:03 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com << No one doubts that the universe has fractal characteristics on smaller scales; the controversy arises when it is claimed that the entire universe itself is a fractal. My opinion is that the whole must share the nature of its parts. But this still leaves open the question of who or what is doing the calculation that brings about the physical manifestation.>> Maybe a hyperperson somewhere in hyperspace is using Hyperfractint 19.6 to examine it. :-P ||===================== || || --v^v-[Nature Leseul]-v^v-- || || The weird guy in the corner || || Dreamy Smurf || || Donatello! || || "Some are vicious, || || some are fools, || || and others blind || || to see in me, || || one of their kind." || || -Anatoly, Endgame (Chess)|| ||"Is this off-topic or what?"|| ||===================== || _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: send comments to philofractal-owner@icd.com From owner-philofractal@icd.com Fri Feb 5 17:20:41 1999 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA28139 for philofractal-list; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:13:19 -0600 X-Authentication-Warning: rock.icd.com: majordomo set sender to owner-philofractal@icd.com using -f Received: from deimos.worldonline.nl (deimos.worldonline.nl [195.241.48.136]) by rock.icd.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA28045 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:57:40 -0600 Received: from default (vp210-160.worldonline.nl [195.241.210.160]) by deimos.worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA04513 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:00:49 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990205225822.007d92c0@pop1.tip.nl> X-Sender: t356237@pop1.tip.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:58:22 +0100 To: philofractal@icd.com From: Jack Ruijs Subject: [philofractal] Better Human, Human Better? In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19990205141132.29ef2626@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-philofractal@icd.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: philofractal@icd.com At 02:15 PM 2/5/99 -0500, Jim wrote: >I'd say 1,000,000 steps forward and 999,999 steps backward is more >appropriate. The system of improvement is horribly inefficient. >We come to earth to supposedly learn the lesson of how to live >life, but by the time we learn our lesson, our lives are over and >it is too late. All we can do is pass on to our children the >things we have learned. The children of course will not listen >and will repeat our mistakes. I never understand why some evolutionary development, mostly human development, is called better and terms as "forward" and "backward" become applicable. Isn't it true that the term "improvement" can only be applied if it is known to BE an improvement? Because there will never be an end of time "after" which we can judge the outcome. It will always be uncertain what is good and what is bad (evolutionary speaking of course). To give an example of what I mean, one can state that our adaptation to the environment (of course it is a bit more complex because we ALTER the environment also) is good in evolutionary sense, but as one can learn from eastern philosophy using the yin yang concept for example "in the utlimate of strength is the origin of weakness". One can believe this or not, but it is easy to see that the "succes" of mankind of the last 100000 years or so, has led us to one giant monoculture, and as we know, this is a very weak structure in nature. A biological monoculture is a perfect breeding ground for nature to develop very dangerous infectious diseases (every "good" "try" of nature will be an instant succes). I regret to say this, but to me it is just a matter of time ... This is also why a little insect like an ant is much more succesful in nature than mankind. Greetings, Jack Ruijs _______ ______ _____ ____ ___ __ _ post: send message to philofractal@icd.com unsub: send "unsubscribe" to philofractal-request@icd.com admin: s